[NCUC-DISCUSS] Fellowship Program

Martin Pablo Silva Valent mpsilvavalent at gmail.com
Wed Nov 8 21:12:12 CET 2017


I know, that’s why I was suggesting it, and proposed a second email conversation…

Cheers,
Martín

> On Nov 8, 2017, at 5:10 PM, thomascovenant <thomascovenant at thomascovenant.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Martin,
> 
> you are free to start a new mail thread with specific points you want
> to address.
> 
> Metrics, success, process etc. of the program you mention are indeed out
> of scope of this discussion - reviewing the program by NCUC also wasn't
> suggested at any point.
> 
> BR,
> thomas
> 
> * * *
> Dina Solveig Jalkanen
> thomascovenant
> Friendly geek in Amsterdam chaos
> https://wiki.techinc.nl/index.php/User:Thomascovenant <https://wiki.techinc.nl/index.php/User:Thomascovenant>
> 
> On 08.11.2017 21:31, Martin Pablo Silva Valent wrote:
>> Ayden,
>> I am stating that this could be part of broader work, since Dina’s
>> concern is not personal, but affects many. So, of course we will all
>> help Dina to address this issue on her own right as she desires to, but
>> as a community, I am proposing to open a broader group to work this and
>> other issues in a coordinated and informed manner.
>> 
>> Therefore, I encourage that, if anyone has doubts or concerns on this
>> program, we can start another email discussion and continue there to
>> work together. We can do questionnaire, gather data and draft our
>> points. Like we do with any other issue.
>> 
>> cheers,
>> Martin
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 8, 2017, at 4:21 PM, Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com
>>> <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Martín,
>>> 
>>> I would respectfully suggest that we limit our conversation for now to
>>> the privacy issue that Dina has raised in relation to the fellowship
>>> programme. We can discuss other, broader issues with the fellowship
>>> programme too, but maybe off-list or at least under a different
>>> subject line. Personally, I have enough concerns with the programme to
>>> fill two books — however for now I think it is more productive that we
>>> focus our efforts on this very legitimate issue that Dina has raised?
>>> And to that end, Dina, if you decide to send your concerns through to
>>> ICANN's Chief Data Protection Officer and I can help in any way,
>>> please do reach out to me.
>>> 
>>> Best wishes, Ayden
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> Subject: Re: [NCUC-DISCUSS] Privacy issues within Fellowship Program
>>>> Local Time: 8 November 2017 7:13 PM
>>>> UTC Time: 8 November 2017 19:13
>>>> From: mpsilvavalent at gmail.com <mailto:mpsilvavalent at gmail.com> <mailto:mpsilvavalent at gmail.com <mailto:mpsilvavalent at gmail.com>>
>>>> To: Mamadou LO <alfamamadou at hotmail.com <mailto:alfamamadou at hotmail.com> <mailto:alfamamadou at hotmail.com <mailto:alfamamadou at hotmail.com>>>
>>>> Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com> <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>>>,
>>>> NCUC Discuss <ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>
>>>> <mailto:ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>>>
>>>> 
>>>> Mamadou,
>>>> For the last couple of month I’ve participated in many conversations
>>>> were people wanted to know more about the metrics and process of the
>>>> Fellowship. Some had doubts or concerns, like the Privacy issue Dina
>>>> brought up. Instead of improvising here and there we could organize
>>>> information for those who want to look at it.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Martín
>>>> 
>>>>> On Nov 8, 2017, at 4:09 PM, Mamadou LO <alfamamadou at hotmail.com <mailto:alfamamadou at hotmail.com>
>>>>> <mailto:alfamamadou at hotmail.com <mailto:alfamamadou at hotmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Martin
>>>>> I'm alumni of the fellowship programme but I did not know/aware of
>>>>> those concerns you raised. Can you be more clear?
>>>>> Mamadou
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Envoyé depuis mon smartphone Samsung Galaxy.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -------- Message d'origine --------
>>>>> De : Martin Pablo Silva Valent <mpsilvavalent at gmail.com <mailto:mpsilvavalent at gmail.com>
>>>>> <mailto:mpsilvavalent at gmail.com <mailto:mpsilvavalent at gmail.com>>>
>>>>> Date : 08/11/2017 18:57 (GMT+00:00)
>>>>> À : Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com> <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>>>
>>>>> Cc : NCUC Discuss <ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>
>>>>> <mailto:ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>>>
>>>>> Objet : Re: [NCUC-DISCUSS] Privacy issues within Fellowship Program
>>>>> 
>>>>> Concerns on different issues around the fellowship have raised among
>>>>> the community, Privacy is only one of those. This is an attempt to
>>>>> create and effective action toward those concerns, privacy included. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Pretty straight forward!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Martín
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Nov 8, 2017, at 1:40 PM, Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>
>>>>>> <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm sorry, Martin, but I am confused. How does any of this relate
>>>>>> to the original point that Dina raised, which was the lack of
>>>>>> awareness among ICANN staff re: privacy? Thanks.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best wishes, Ayden
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NCUC-DISCUSS] Privacy issues within Fellowship Program
>>>>>>> Local Time: 8 November 2017 4:28 PM
>>>>>>> UTC Time: 8 November 2017 16:28
>>>>>>> From: mpsilvavalent at gmail.com <mailto:mpsilvavalent at gmail.com> <mailto:mpsilvavalent at gmail.com <mailto:mpsilvavalent at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> To: Glenn McKnight <mcknight.glenn at gmail.com <mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> <mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com <mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com>>>
>>>>>>> NCUC Discuss <ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>
>>>>>>> <mailto:ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>>>> In the hope of helping addressing this concerns, I’ve gathered a
>>>>>>> few links of material on the fellowship already public. I
>>>>>>> understand they are updating some things, like the privacy
>>>>>>> provision in the Terms and web stuff.
>>>>>>> Some metrics of the last 10 yeas can be found in the 2017 survey
>>>>>>> report as well. And I am confident that we could gather a
>>>>>>> questioner for the staff to answer, and eventually a letter of
>>>>>>> recommendations or comments. This could help level the information
>>>>>>> and clarify doubts, a good way to structure the issue and put
>>>>>>> forward an concrete action.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Fellowship main page: https://www.icann.org/fellowshipprogram <https://www.icann.org/fellowshipprogram>
>>>>>>> <https://www.icann.org/fellowshipprogram <https://www.icann.org/fellowshipprogram>>
>>>>>>> Terms:
>>>>>>> https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/terms-conditions-2012-02-25-en <https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/terms-conditions-2012-02-25-en>
>>>>>>> <https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/terms-conditions-2012-02-25-en <https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/terms-conditions-2012-02-25-en>>
>>>>>>> Selection criteria:
>>>>>>> https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/fellowship-applicant-criteria-2016-09-08-en <https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/fellowship-applicant-criteria-2016-09-08-en>
>>>>>>> <https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/fellowship-applicant-criteria-2016-09-08-en <https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/fellowship-applicant-criteria-2016-09-08-en>>
>>>>>>> Selection Committee:
>>>>>>> https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/committee-2012-02-25-en <https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/committee-2012-02-25-en>
>>>>>>> <https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/committee-2012-02-25-en <https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/committee-2012-02-25-en>>
>>>>>>> FAQs:
>>>>>>> https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/fellowship-faqs-2015-07-10-en <https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/fellowship-faqs-2015-07-10-en><https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/fellowship-faqs-2015-07-10-en <https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/fellowship-faqs-2015-07-10-en>>
>>>>>>> 10 yeas survey report:
>>>>>>> https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/icann-fellowship-program-10-year-survey-dprd-28jun17-en.pdf <https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/icann-fellowship-program-10-year-survey-dprd-28jun17-en.pdf>
>>>>>>> <https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/icann-fellowship-program-10-year-survey-dprd-28jun17-en.pdf <https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/icann-fellowship-program-10-year-survey-dprd-28jun17-en.pdf>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Other part also might have some relevant data (you need to dive in
>>>>>>> a little to grasp the numbers):
>>>>>>> Financial
>>>>>>> reports: https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/governance/current-en <https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/governance/current-en>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There were some blog post as well:
>>>>>>> Part
>>>>>>> 1: https://www.icann.org/news/blog/the-fellowship-spirit-part-one-of-a-four-part-blog-series <https://www.icann.org/news/blog/the-fellowship-spirit-part-one-of-a-four-part-blog-series>
>>>>>>> Part 2: https://www.icann.org/news/blog/the-fellowship-spirit <https://www.icann.org/news/blog/the-fellowship-spirit>
>>>>>>> Part 3: https://www.icann.org/news/blog/the-fellowship-spirit-en <https://www.icann.org/news/blog/the-fellowship-spirit-en>
>>>>>>> Part
>>>>>>> 4: https://www.icann.org/news/blog/the-fellowship-spirit-0edb9f60-6898-4121-a0e3-5865c9a4106d <https://www.icann.org/news/blog/the-fellowship-spirit-0edb9f60-6898-4121-a0e3-5865c9a4106d>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I’ve seen many times around that a lot of the concerns on the
>>>>>>> fellowship are actually misinformation, weather the facts are not
>>>>>>> known or are wrong. And is very easy to build on those mistakes or
>>>>>>> half/trues to later find out the whole analysis has to be rebuilt,
>>>>>>> or becomes and ineffective action. So I would suggest we first try
>>>>>>> to scope the data on this, level our concepts so we can define
>>>>>>> concerns and eventually give an opinion.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> For instance, in evaluating the merit of the program we have to
>>>>>>> understand the initial goal, there is no use in assuming or
>>>>>>> improvising the goal of the program, is written and when measuring
>>>>>>> the success we should go back to it. We can also discuss if the
>>>>>>> current goal, met or not and by how much, is the goal we think is
>>>>>>> best. Again, flying ideas without actually going through this
>>>>>>> process are not helpful. "Scaling back the program", something
>>>>>>> I’ve heard a lot and personally might even agree, is a valid idea,
>>>>>>> but we should only recommend it if we fully understand the whole
>>>>>>> data and concepts, not just because we “feel” it, we have a strong
>>>>>>> intuition or it seems reasonable given what we know from other stuff.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I volunteer to lead a group to review fellowship and other
>>>>>>> onboarding/outreach/capacity building programs, if that’s what
>>>>>>> NCUC/NCSG members are interested. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cheers to all,
>>>>>>> Martin Silva
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Nov 8, 2017, at 11:06 AM, Glenn McKnight
>>>>>>>> <mcknight.glenn at gmail.com <mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com> <mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com <mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Another interesting document to read is from a few years ago when
>>>>>>>> they asked for community feedback and they did a comparison to
>>>>>>>> other fellowship program
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Not sure where it is.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As to the privacy stuff.  I assume Siranush is still getting used
>>>>>>>> to the job and and she will work out these issues in due time.   
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> G
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Glenn McKnight
>>>>>>>> NARALO Secretariat
>>>>>>>> mcknight.glenn at gmail.com <mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com> <mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com <mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>> skype  gmcknight
>>>>>>>> twitter gmcknight
>>>>>>>> 289-830 6259
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 8:59 AM, Chenai Chair <chrche001 at gmail.com <mailto:chrche001 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:chrche001 at gmail.com <mailto:chrche001 at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>    Thanks Glenn! super useful to read this and reflect on the
>>>>>>>>    fellowship process
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>    On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Glenn McKnight
>>>>>>>>    <mcknight.glenn at gmail.com <mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com> <mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com <mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>>    wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>        Here is the Fellowship survey  I converted to a Ebook
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>        http://online.fliphtml5.com/gnel/jjgd/ <http://online.fliphtml5.com/gnel/jjgd/>
>>>>>>>>        <http://online.fliphtml5.com/gnel/jjgd/ <http://online.fliphtml5.com/gnel/jjgd/>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>        G
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>        Glenn McKnight
>>>>>>>>        NARALO Secretariat
>>>>>>>>        mcknight.glenn at gmail.com <mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com> <mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com <mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>        skype  gmcknight
>>>>>>>>        twitter gmcknight
>>>>>>>>        289-830 6259 <tel:(289)%20830-6259>
>>>>>>>>        .
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>        On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 7:21 AM, Shreedeep Rayamajhi
>>>>>>>>        <rayamajhishreedeep at gmail.com <mailto:rayamajhishreedeep at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>        <mailto:rayamajhishreedeep at gmail.com <mailto:rayamajhishreedeep at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>            I think there should be some level of privacy to be
>>>>>>>>            attained in regards while handling  personal
>>>>>>>>            information. People do give their information with
>>>>>>>>            trust and it should be handled with care in terms of
>>>>>>>>            the after the purposes is finished. It should be the
>>>>>>>>            responsibility of the receiver to assure there is no
>>>>>>>>            unauthorized use of the information. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>            May be a process has to be initiated  that after the
>>>>>>>>            completion of the purpose the information is stopped
>>>>>>>>            from passing on. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>            Regards 
>>>>>>>>            Shreedeep Rayamajhi
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>            On Nov 8, 2017 5:41 PM, "thomascovenant"
>>>>>>>>            <thomascovenant at thomascovenant.org <mailto:thomascovenant at thomascovenant.org>
>>>>>>>>            <mailto:thomascovenant at thomascovenant.org <mailto:thomascovenant at thomascovenant.org>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>                Hi Ayden,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> And I have noted programmes, such as the global
>>>>>>>>                indigenous ambassador
>>>>>>>>> programme, have their application form on a
>>>>>>>>                Google Form
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>                - You are correct. I have just joined the
>>>>>>>>                Indigenous Program and we will
>>>>>>>>                address this by the next application round.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>                +1 on other points made
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>                Great meeting you in person during ICANN60,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>                thomas
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>                --
>>>>>>>>                Jalkanen Dina Solveig
>>>>>>>>                * * *
>>>>>>>>                Friendly geek in Amsterdam, happy FSFE and EFF member
>>>>>>>>                https://wiki.techinc.nl/index.php/User:Thomascovenant <https://wiki.techinc.nl/index.php/User:Thomascovenant>
>>>>>>>>                <https://wiki.techinc.nl/index.php/User:Thomascovenant <https://wiki.techinc.nl/index.php/User:Thomascovenant>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>                On 08.11.2017 11:02, Ayden Férdeline wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I think it is reasonable to say that ICANN, as
>>>>>>>>                an organisation, has no
>>>>>>>>> awareness of privacy or why it is important.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Indeed, the recently appointed Chief Data
>>>>>>>>                Protection Officer has no
>>>>>>>>> background in privacy or data protection.
>>>>>>>>                (Seriously.)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> And I have noted programmes, such as the global
>>>>>>>>                indigenous ambassador
>>>>>>>>> programme, have their application form on a
>>>>>>>>                Google Form where one can
>>>>>>>>> even read all of the candidate's applications,
>>>>>>>>                including the candidate's
>>>>>>>>> address, if they so desire.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> None of this is acceptable Dina, and I would
>>>>>>>>                encourage you to write to
>>>>>>>>> the CDPO, Daniel Halloran, to document this
>>>>>>>>                incident.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> We will have more recourses at our disposal
>>>>>>>>                from next May when
>>>>>>>>> enforcement of GDPR is in effect to take this
>>>>>>>>                complaint further, but for
>>>>>>>>> now, it is important we can show that we have
>>>>>>>>                been repeatedly making
>>>>>>>>> ICANN the organisation aware of its failure to
>>>>>>>>                protect the personal data
>>>>>>>>> that it collects and retains. 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> —Ayden
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NCUC-DISCUSS] Privacy issues
>>>>>>>>                within Fellowship Program
>>>>>>>>>> Local Time: 8 November 2017 8:25 AM
>>>>>>>>>> UTC Time: 8 November 2017 08:25
>>>>>>>>>> From: raquino at gmail.com <mailto:raquino at gmail.com> <mailto:raquino at gmail.com <mailto:raquino at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>> To: NCUC-discuss <ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>
>>>>>>>>                <mailto:ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The leakage of private information is indeed
>>>>>>>>                an issue.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I was in an associated program w/ the
>>>>>>>>                Fellowship this time so did not
>>>>>>>>>> get the email that Dina mentioned.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I remember in previous editions of Fellowship
>>>>>>>>                program, I discussed
>>>>>>>>>> basic privacy configurations - like telling
>>>>>>>>                people how to protect an
>>>>>>>>>> online Google Spreadsheet. So there is a lack
>>>>>>>>                also of staff, tools and
>>>>>>>>>> other provisions to protect managing fellows'
>>>>>>>>                data.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I think we need to go via an educational route
>>>>>>>>                here.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This is an international group, fastly
>>>>>>>>                organized and disorganized and
>>>>>>>>>> it may as well be that fellows have their own
>>>>>>>>                data gathering
>>>>>>>>>> initiatives for social purposes or whatever.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The idea of a workshop or a discussion about
>>>>>>>>                privacy sounds like a
>>>>>>>>>> good route.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Renata
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>                ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Ncuc-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>
>>>>>>>>                <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>>
>>>>>>>>                <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>
>>>>>>>>                <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>                https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss <https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss>
>>>>>>>>                <https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss <https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss>>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Ncuc-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>
>>>>>>>>                <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>                https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss <https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss>
>>>>>>>>                <https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss <https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss>>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>                _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>                Ncuc-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>                Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>
>>>>>>>>                <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>>
>>>>>>>>                https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss <https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss>
>>>>>>>>                <https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss <https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>            _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>            Ncuc-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>            Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>
>>>>>>>>            <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>>
>>>>>>>>            https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss <https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss>
>>>>>>>>            <https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss <https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>        _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>        Ncuc-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>        Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>
>>>>>>>>        <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>>
>>>>>>>>        https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss <https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss>
>>>>>>>>        <https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss <https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>    -- 
>>>>>>>>    Chenai Chair
>>>>>>>>    Research ICT Africa:Researcher
>>>>>>>>    w:cchair at researchictafrica.net <mailto:cchair at researchictafrica.net>
>>>>>>>>    <mailto:w%3Acchair at researchictafrica.net <mailto:3Acchair at researchictafrica.net>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>    'What is worth knowing?'
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Ncuc-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org> <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>>
>>>>>>>> https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss <https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss>
>>>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ncuc-discuss mailing list
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>> https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss <https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss>
>> 
> 
> -- 
> * * *
> Friendly geek in Amsterdam, happy FSFE and EFF member
> https://wiki.techinc.nl/index.php/User:Thomascovenant <https://wiki.techinc.nl/index.php/User:Thomascovenant>
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