[NCUC-DISCUSS] NCUC French translation project [was Chinese Translation Project]
Stephanie Perrin
stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca
Wed Mar 18 16:34:15 CET 2015
I agree with this analysis....especially given that our audience is
francophones in developing countries, to whom ICANN is not a daily
reality. Troisieme....
Cheers Stephanie
On 2015-03-18 7:52, Timothe Litt wrote:
> I won't get far into the French argument: I'm no expert. But to
> Nicolas' point on the English equivalent, which illuminates a larger
> issue:
>
> This is a common issue with jargon. To decide, consider your audience.
>
> The way to understand how this diverges is to expand the acronym.
> Here's a sentence from the home page:
>
> The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers is a
> non-profit organization.
>
> If one removes the article, it makes no sense.
>
> On the other hand:
> IBM is a for-profit organization.
>
> Here, the acronym has been turned into a noun by years of common usage.
> "International Business Machines" is a for-profit organization.
> barely works, because it's implictly
> International Business Machines Incorporated is a for-profit
> organization.
>
> So the issue is whether ICANN is a well-known enough acronym to be
> considered a noun, rather than something that people need to expand
> in-place to understand.
>
> In an introductory document, on behalf of the audience, I say no. In
> any language.
>
> Within the group of people who live and breathe ICANN policy and
> politics, the answer can be different. The ICANN sure is a complex
> replacement for one guy and his secretary.
>
> And that's the larger challenge for writing any document: know your
> audience.
>
> Donc, je suis d'accord avec Jean. Troisième.
>
> Timothe Litt
> ACM Distinguished Engineer
> --------------------------
> This communication may not represent the ACM or my employer's views,
> if any, on the matters discussed.
> On 18-Mar-15 03:41, Jean Guillon wrote:
>> Troisième.
>>
>> *Jean Guillon*
>> www.gTLD.club <http://www.gtld.club>
>> *Mobile*: +33.631109837
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:06 PM, Nicolas Adam
>> <nickolas.adam at gmail.com <mailto:nickolas.adam at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> This is a more complex question than meets the eyes ;)
>>
>> There is probably 3 ways to go about it.
>>
>> À propos de ICANN
>> À propos d'ICANN
>> À propos de l'ICANN
>>
>> and I guess the last one is the one I liked the least. But I'm
>> more than willing to go with it though.
>>
>> It is true that we commonly say l'ONU, and that we have used the
>> *l'* most everywhere else when it comes to International orgs.
>> However, it's sometimes wrong. And more often than we might think.
>>
>>> L*'élision* consiste, en règle générale, à remplacer par une
>>> apostrophe une des voyelles finales "a, e, i" d'un mot,
>>> lorsqu'il ce mot est suivi d'un autre commençant par une voyelle
>>> "a, e, i, o, u" ou commençant par un " h " muet.
>>
>> However, we do not think about ICANN (at least I don't) as "La
>> ICANN" or "Le ICANN" that we could strip that a or that e and
>> replace it with an **'**.
>>
>> For me, it's more of a "de ICANN" situation, as in "le problème
>> de ICANN est que bla bla" and not "le problème de la ICANN ..."
>> (where you would have two /déterminants/ in front of the word)
>> and that's why I abbreviated it like I did, using the above rule.
>> In essence, I determined that the sentenced to be shortened by
>> the /élision/ was
>>
>> 1) À propos de ICANN
>>
>> and not
>>
>> 2) À propos de la ICANN
>>
>>
>> So that was one grammatical reason. But a grammatical reason that
>> hinges fully on the first determination being right (a
>> determination that could be challenged: it *is* possible to have
>> "de la" in front of a word: "de la tarte"). So the determination
>> itself seems to hinge on what is the most appropriate word
>> category for ICANN. Is it like a pie or more like Internet?
>> Notice, not the Internet.
>>
>> So the reason ceases to be solely grammatical and becomes logical
>> and relates to a category mistake that is often made with many
>> process or phenomenon that are (wrongly, IMO) thing-ified (reified).
>>
>> I may have been too polluted by English (please take no offense,
>> I love Poe's idiom), but for the same reason I do not feel it
>> right to say "The ICANN is ..." and that it sounds better to say
>> "ICANN is", for instance; and for the same reason that it sounds
>> better to say "UNICEF is" rather than "The UNICEF is ...", I feel
>> it it is ugly form on top of bad philosophy to emphasize a
>> reified (thing-ified) outcome, for some words referring to
>> processes and phenomena.
>>
>> Yes, English uses "The UN ..." quite a bit when it comes to the
>> United Nations. I have no idea why and I'll grant that it almost
>> feels wrong today to say "UN is ...". I feel this form ("... the
>> UN ...") is a wrong that will endure because it has, basically.
>> But at the same time it doesn't look like we are going there with
>> (the) ICANN or (the) UNICEF ...
>>
>> I think that logically, it is a category mistake, the same that
>> many people make when they say "*the* Internet" (or, its French
>> equivalent, "l'Internet"). Internet is not a thing, and language
>> shouldn't thing-ified it. Internet is a process, an emerging
>> phenomenon. So is ICANN!
>>
>> So ... the fact that ICANN's first letter means, precisely,
>> Internet, the same word people so often wrongly use a "the" in
>> front of, kinds of stack on that first determination on which the
>> grammatical rules is then applied.
>>
>> When we use the "ONU" acronym, it is the translation of the UN
>> acronym, and it stands for "Organisation des Nations Unies". The
>> word "Organisation" calls for the l' in a way that seems
>> impossible to resist, but I would argue that sometimes, it is
>> indeed wrong to think
>>
>> "la mission de la ONU"
>>
>> and that we should have probably thought
>>
>> "la mission de ONU"
>>
>> and that, as a result, we should have probably said "la mission
>> d'ONU" instead of "la mission de l'ONU".
>>
>> But I am well aware that I will not find that "correct" élision
>> anywhere and that usage has deeply ingrained "de l'ONU".
>>
>> I wouldn't make a case for ceasing to use l'ONU, you know. But I
>> would resist (as I have in the past) any attempt by proofreaders
>> to make me change ICANN into l'ICANN *in a personal text of
>> mine*. This not being a personal text of mine, I will go with
>> whatever you think is best. I guess I felt like I would
>> preemptively right a soon to be aesthetical wrong :) and you
>> caught me red handed in language activism ;)
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Nicolas
>>
>> On 17/03/2015 9:56 AM, Mathias HOUNGBO wrote:
>>> Hello Nicolas
>>>
>>> why you write "À propos d'ICANN" and not "À propos de l'ICANN" ?
>>>
>>> we said "À propos de l'ONU" here http://www.un.org/fr/aboutun/
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "And then God said Noah make me a backup I need to format"
>>> "Mefies toi de la médiocrité, c'est la moisissure de l'esprit"
>>>
>>> --
>>> Made in Bénin -http://mathias.houngbo.net
>>> Président ONG IGBANet -http://www.igbanet.org/
>>> System and Network Administrator at BCEAO Bénin
>>> CTO & Co-Founder at STARSOFT INFORMATIQUE
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 13/03/2015 20:05, Nicolas Adam a écrit :
>>>> Here is the first half, which is the most i could do today.
>>>>
>>>> I send it right now because I won't be able to work more on it
>>>> before Monday night, so if someone else wanted to do some work
>>>> on it then they can do so without redoing what I just did.
>>>> Since there is quite a bit of neologism that has arisen around
>>>> Internet Governance, and translating them with equivalents
>>>> (with the view that they stay stable) isn't always a
>>>> straightforward process, don't hesitate to discuss the choices
>>>> I made with me.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers!
>>>>
>>>> Nicolas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 13/03/2015 11:34 AM, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
>>>>> Huguenot... we bailed out for England so long ago we are
>>>>> rusty! I must admit it was embarrassing when I lived in
>>>>> Quebec, where folks are not taught much history of those
>>>>> massacres, and did not understand the explanation. You, on
>>>>> the other hand, have such an english name....?
>>>>> Suppose we take the text in word and divide it up? I have
>>>>> plunked the online version into word, attached.
>>>>> cheers Stephanie
>>>>> PS some of these expressions must have already been
>>>>> translated, anybody know which document would be easiest to
>>>>> follow? I dont fancy dredging through meeting transcripts if
>>>>> I can avoid it...
>>>>> On 2015-03-13 10:57, Nicolas Adam wrote:
>>>>>> Ma langue maternelle est le français. I can help with the
>>>>>> vetting and writing. You have french names Stéphanie Pérrin ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nicolas
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13/03/2015 10:29 AM, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
>>>>>>> Yes we do, I am not a native speaker but can do a rough
>>>>>>> translation which we could have vetted by a francophone.
>>>>>>> Stephanie Perrin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2015-03-13 4:04, Arsène Tungali wrote:
>>>>>>>> This is a great news.
>>>>>>>> We may need to think of French translation as well. Do we
>>>>>>>> have french
>>>>>>>> speakers in the NCUC?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2015-03-13 6:44 UTC+02:00, Jia He <hejia925 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:hejia925 at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>> Yes, this idea is great. I have a face-to-face
>>>>>>>>> conversation with Peter
>>>>>>>>> this morning . For the brochure translation, we can divide
>>>>>>>>> the task into
>>>>>>>>> two parts. each of our both can translate a half , then we
>>>>>>>>> invite the
>>>>>>>>> experts in CCTEAG (Chinese Community Translation Expert
>>>>>>>>> Advisory Group) to
>>>>>>>>> Check it. CCTEAG is organized by my academy, so it is easy
>>>>>>>>> to connect with
>>>>>>>>> those experienced experts who participate in ICANN meeting
>>>>>>>>> for many times.
>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, those experts can make sure the words we
>>>>>>>>> translated is in the
>>>>>>>>> right way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We will see the Chinese NCUC brochure in Argentina.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Jia
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2015-03-13 0:17 GMT+08:00 Amr Elsadr <aelsadr at egyptig.org>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:aelsadr at egyptig.org>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This sounds fantastic. Exactly the sort of work a
>>>>>>>>>> regional representative
>>>>>>>>>> on the EC should be undertaking!! The best of luck to you
>>>>>>>>>> and Jia on your
>>>>>>>>>> endeavour.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Amr
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2015, at 4:37 PM, PeterGreen
>>>>>>>>>> <seekcommunications at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:seekcommunications at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hello NCUCers,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As the Asian/Pacific Representative on the Executive
>>>>>>>>>> Committee, I would
>>>>>>>>>> like to take this opportunity to formally announce that
>>>>>>>>>> we are launching a
>>>>>>>>>> "*NCUC
>>>>>>>>>> Chinese Translation Project*".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In this Project, we will translate NCUC materials into
>>>>>>>>>> Chinese, enabling
>>>>>>>>>> more Chinese to be involved in our Constituency, to that
>>>>>>>>>> extent to
>>>>>>>>>> commit
>>>>>>>>>> to the most diversified Constituency within ICANN
>>>>>>>>>> community in terms of
>>>>>>>>>> language.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This Project will be taken by a translation team under
>>>>>>>>>> the Department of
>>>>>>>>>> International Affairs and Policy Analysis of China
>>>>>>>>>> Organizational Name
>>>>>>>>>> Administration Center (CONAC) - my home institution,
>>>>>>>>>> together with my
>>>>>>>>>> Chinese Colleague Jia He who recently joined NCUC.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Firstly, we will start by translating NCUC Brochure,
>>>>>>>>>> which is currently
>>>>>>>>>> written in Enligh and Spanish, available at
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ncuc.org/brochure/
>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> After that we will tranlate other materials into Chinese
>>>>>>>>>> according to an
>>>>>>>>>> EC scheduled priorities list (which is to be determined).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is aimed that we could circulate Chinese vesion NCUC
>>>>>>>>>> Brochures during
>>>>>>>>>> ICANN 53 to be held in Buenos Aires in late June.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In launching this thread, hope more NCUCers who would
>>>>>>>>>> like to join in
>>>>>>>>>> other kind of language tranlation work take up a similar
>>>>>>>>>> initiative.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks very much for your attention.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best Regards
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Zhang Zuan / Peter Green
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Ncuc-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Ncuc-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Ncuc-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>
>>>>>>> http://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Ncuc-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>
>>>>>> http://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ncuc-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>
>>>>> http://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ncuc-discuss mailing list
>>>> Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>
>>>> http://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ncuc-discuss mailing list
>> Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org <mailto:Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org>
>> http://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss
>>
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ncuc-discuss mailing list
> Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org
> http://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.ncuc.org/pipermail/ncuc-discuss/attachments/20150318/092c7a7f/attachment-0002.html>
More information about the Ncuc-discuss
mailing list