[Ec-ncuc] Mailing list action items

Thu Feb 14 14:37:37 CET 2013

Hello Bill,

> Yesterday I was a bit of a mess dealing with unexpected and complicated
> passport/visa/travel planning problems while crashing to finish and post a
> course syllabus and readings, so I wasn't thinking entirely straight and
> seek your indulgence in revising and extending my remarks.
>

Interesting. As you've been pushing for 'discuss' since the issue was
brought up over a month ago, can we assume that you haven't been thinking
straight for over a month? O is it  that you are not thinking straight
today?

Of course some say personally I never think straight,  so don't feel bad
whichever it is. At least with you it appears a temporary condition. :)

> Re: the new list, I was thinking top down about such things as why
> shouldn't it have the same name as before for the purpose of archive
> integration, following general standards, etc.  It occurs to me over
> mooring coffee that I should have been thinking bottom up, in two respects:
> 1) confusingly similar names may confound members as to whether a
> ncuc-discuss is "competing with" a ncsg-discuss and force us to deal with
> division of labor questions I'd rather see sorted out organically;

As you correctly pointed out yesterday, the historical legacy of the NCUC
mailing list would indicate the name of 'discuss'. By changing the name we
are sending the message certain topics aren't to be discussed on the list.
To allow for organic growth I'd suggest sticking with our legacy,
'discuss', which has been your position, rather strongly at times, until
this morning.

Strange it comes on the morning when I see a very strong post indicating a
new, more aggressive NCSG PC.

> and 2) we should respect the processes we've established for community
> input.

We have a process for community input?

I have seen discussions about this matter on a private mailing list back
when I belonged to it, on this EC list which isn't really an EC list
because it contains a large number of the people from the private list and
far more people than on the EC...don't see any discussion amongst the wider
community because they have no idea that any of these discussions are going
on.

I guess you are correct, though, that we are using the processes that have
been established for community input,  which actually neglect the vast
majority of the community. Not that they would care....most are inactive,
 perhaps because they aren't regularly asked to be involved.

> We have an EPT,

You'll have to forgive my newbie ignorance. I know of a pregnancy test
called the EPT, I doubt that's applicable here.  EPT?

>
> So I propose we set up ncuc-members rather than ncuc-discuss.  Yes or no?
>  24 hours and then Tapani can pull the trigger tomorrow
>

No.

A brave decision would be to send a post to the general membership using
the new list 'ncuc-noname', have proponents for each position contribute a
paragraph each outlining their argument, and letting the members vote. A
great way to roll out a new concept (a new list) and allow members to
become engaged. The result really wouldn't matter as much as the process of
engagement.

Of course, we'd need to wake them up first, something I fear is going to
take years and a big hammer after so many years of non-engagement. First,
of course,  I need to find out who to get the hammer rom. I'm fear it's
been stolen or has a crack in it,  the result of atrophy from lack of use.

> Sorry for the back and forth, particularly swamped right now and can't see
> straight.
>

We agree on that point. You've been quite clear on your preference for
weeks, loudly at times, for 'discuss':  a correct view in my opinion.

Your view does now seem a bit muddled. Your leadership, though, is intact
and since support of my view has deserted me and followed your new view I
guess I need to accept reality so we can get the project moving. Of course,
I would welcome your return to the position you've consistently held for
just under two months but lacking that...Tapani should do what he needs to
do.

Once I return from my trip to North America, where my GF is wisely
insisting on no computer use, I'll be calling for stricter compliance with
our Charter in all areas. I've actually come to like the document because
it seems to really embrace bottom up processes and I'm afraid we've gotten
away from that a bit with our ad hoc structures. They can co-exist.

As such, to comply with section IX.A of the NCUC Charter,  the one the
current EC was elected under,  I call for creation of Discussion, EC and
Announce lists. No worries: we can call them whatever we want. See above.
In reality, people will go where they want regardless of the name.

My concern is that there may now be backtracking on our previous plan to
reposition our NCUC-EC list to include only EC members. That is far more
important to me than what we call the Discussion list. I found it very
difficult to get Amr's appointment to the SCI through the current cluttered
EC list and I do believe the EC needs to have someplace where we can
fulfill official duties. The new discuss/member list can incorporate the
wider community, the EC list the Executive Committee.

I will remind everyone that section IX.A of the NCUC Charter states "The EC
list is for official communications and deliberations among the Executive
Committee". I'm happy to defer to the Chair concerning utilization of the
Announce list but I do respectfully respect that it, along with a true EC
list,  be established so we are in full compliance with the Charter.

Damn. That felt good. I've been repressing the inner lawyer inside me for
two months. Robin does a better job at acting more human and less lawyer
than any highly educated attorney  I've ever encountered. I really admire
that about her. I wish I were so good...

>
> Bill
>
> On Feb 13, 2013, at 3:44 PM, William Drake <william.drake at uzh.ch> wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > On Feb 13, 2013, at 3:12 PM, Tapani Tarvainen <
> ncuc at TAPANI.TARVAINEN.INFO> wrote:
> >
> >> On Feb 10 10:52, William Drake (william.drake at uzh.ch) wrote:
> >>
> >>> I prefer Discuss [...] I will roll with whatever the consensus
> >>> among elected EC members is.
> >>
> >> Looks like we've got three supporting ncuc-discuss, including the
> >> chair, with three abstentions. Close enough to consensus for me,
> >> but I'll leave that up to you.
> >
> > Amidst all the mail flying on different topics in different spaces I've
> lost track of who has or hasn't replied.  However, I wouldn't consider a
> non-reply as an abstention (!?).  If that were the standard, abstention
> would probably be the majority position on most issues in most
> collaborative spaces I know, and not just within NCUC, NCSG, ICANN, civil
> society, etc etc.  This would hardly constitute a raving endorsement of
> anything.
> >
> > Instead, I think we have to proceed on the standard assumption that if
> something's been proposed and people haven't responded after a due or
> designated period of time, that constitutes consensus.
> >
> > So how about this.  It's last call at the bar.  If nobody has disagreed
> by 24 hours from now, we declare consensus and do something!
> >
> >>
> >> Another mailing list action item is moving this list and
> >> its archives to ncuc.org domain and renaming it to "ncuc-ec",
> >> as per discussion by the e-team
> >> (cf. http://lists.ncuc.org/pipermail/e-team/2013-February/000160.html
> >> and associated thread).
> >> This would also be a good opportunity to trim the list to include only
> >> current EC members.
> >
> > These two proposals have also been laying out there for some time now.
>  So again, I suggest that if nobody has disagreed by 24 hours from now, we
> declare consensus and act.
> >
> > And if someone does disagree, then I guess we have to a) discuss a
> little more to see if we can find formulations suitable to all, and if that
> fails b) either do rough consensus or, if people feel sharply divided,
> vote.  The latter would be rather odd.
> >
> > So ok folks, 24 hours.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Bill
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ec-ncuc mailing list
> > Ec-ncuc at ipjustice.org
> > http://mailman.ctyme.com/listinfo/ec-ncuc
>
>
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