Question about NCUC faq relating to membership

Mon Nov 14 22:21:25 CET 2011

Hi Alain,

Thank you again for clarifying. I think you are absolutely correct that an
objective approach to these assessments is important and taking the
hypothetical perspective of an independent third party assessor is helpful.

The disagreement appears to be whether this has been applied or not in the
case of one applicant. I don't think it is patently unreasonable to say that
an Olympic committee, that is closely partnered with many commercial
entities, and is closely affiliated in interest with such entities will not
be primarily non-commercial in its focus. But I will admit I am not as
familiar with the nuances of this application as some.

Also I do highly value multi-stakeholder processes but have not seen the
Clinton speech you refer too.. Will certainly track down : )

Best regards,

Tamir

  _____

From: Alain Berranger [mailto:alain.berranger at gmail.com]
Sent: November 14, 2011 3:46 PM
To: Tamir Israel
Cc: NCSG-DISCUSS at listserv.syr.edu
Subject: Re: Question about NCUC faq relating to membership

Tamir,

I agree with you. Let me clarify that I'm not advocating for third party
involvement, just suggesting the internal membership admission group uses an
evidence-based approach (with no need to go to a third party); just apply
the criteria in such a way that a third party would objectively arrive at
the same conclusion/ decision about membership... maybe too idealistic?..
but evaluators do use this approach...

Cheers, Alain

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Tamir Israel <tisrael at cippic.ca> wrote:

Hi Alain,

Thanks for the information, I will make sure to do my homework!

I suppose my thinking is that a.) viewing the number of emails this list
generates on a daily basis, dialogue does ot seem to have broken down (many
of these appear to be from you/responses to concerns raised by you) and b.)
imposing external oversight over membership decisions of a stakeholder group
such as this raises, in my eyes, more issues than it resolves.

Best regards,

Tamir

  _____

From: Alain Berranger [mailto:alain.berranger at gmail.com]
Sent: November 14, 2011 3:25 PM

To: Tamir Israel
Cc: NCSG-DISCUSS at listserv.syr.edu
Subject: Re: Question about NCUC faq relating to membership

Hi Tamir,

interesting!...Thanks for sharing.

BTW, no apologies needed...

I understand the appeal feature...right now the balance of power within NCSG
would make it ineffective. Appealing or using ombdusman should be a last
resort when dialogue has broken down. Much more deesirable to look at the
facts, most often then, the decision becomes obvious.

I think an organization interested in ICANN can choose to join the
Constituency that makes the most sense for that organization... and use the
Statement of Interest (SOI) to be transparent about secondary interests or
apparent conflicts of interest... Where I have a concern is when those
"other" interests are not declared at all... and/or that SOIs are not
available... It always raise the issue if this is as a result of neglect or
by design... neither options are much desirable!

Indeed, all this is needed to keep ICANN a true multi-stakeholder
organization. Bill Clinton, like him or not, made that very clear at his San
Francisco address during ICANN 40. His text should be required reading for
all new comers to ICANN and a good refresher for all.

Cheers, Alain

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Tamir Israel <tisrael at cippic.ca> wrote:

Hi Alain,

Thank you for clarifying this for me.

I apologize if I am merely rehashing matters that have already been
addressed (I am somewhat new to the list). From what I understand, it is
fairly common for groups such as this to assess membership internally with
an appeal process. That appears to be the practice for other constituency
groups:

http://www.ipconstituency.org/join-the-ipc/

http://www.ipconstituency.org/bylaws/

http://www.bizconst.org/responsibilities.htm

http://www.bizconst.org/charter.htm

I think this is to some extent unavoidable.

I note with some amusement that my own legal clinic (CIPPIC) would likely
qualify for both the IP and the Bus constituencies, given a very narrow
interpretation, because, while we advocate in the public interest, we are
composed of copyright lawyers and do on occasion consult with for-profit
e-commerce organizations where this will further the public interest.
However, were we to do so, I think it would pose serious challenges for a
multi-stakeholder model such as that ICANN aspires to.

Best regards,

Tamir

  _____

From: Alain Berranger [mailto:alain.berranger at gmail.com]
Sent: November 14, 2011 2:36 PM
To: Tamir Israel
Cc: NCSG-DISCUSS at listserv.syr.edu

Subject: Re: Question about NCUC faq relating to membership

Tamir,

no objection at all... as an applied research grantmaking practitioner in
the past, as well as a retired evaluation consultant for international
development agencies, I have seen the benefits of assessments being made on
the basis of facts (or evidence if you prefer) which I define as objectively
verifiable by an independant and uninterested third party. I suggest that
norm be followed for admitting members into our constituencies and
stakeholders' group.

Alain

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Tamir Israel <tisrael at cippic.ca> wrote:

Hi there,

I just wanted to clarify if you're objection is to attempts at assessing
'real non-commercial' in general, or to specific line-drawing with respect
to one application (Olympic committee). If the objective is to ensure true
representation of non-commercial interests, legal (or .org) non-profit
status is not enough, I think. It would be far too easy to game, as any
commercial interest can quite easily set up a non-profit wing. In fact, it's
fairly common practice for industry or business groups to set up non-profits
precisely for the purpose of advancing commercial interests. I can think of
many examples.

The legal criteria for 'non-profit' relate to financial structuring, not to
'interests advanced'. There do not appear to be any requirements for .org
registration. Given this, I think it is incumbent upon NCSG to do some sort
of assessment to ensure that it remains representative of non-commercial
interests.

Best,

Tamir

  _____

From: NCSG-Discuss [mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU] On Behalf Of Alain
Berranger
Sent: November 13, 2011 12:23 PM
To: NCSG-DISCUSS at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
Subject: Re: Question about NCUC faq relating to membership

Meanwhile, I think we can only be taken seriously inside and outside ICANN
and do meaningful work, if we have hundred more if not thousands of NGO/NFP
members... so arguing about this NGO or this NFP being a "real
non-commercial" seems counterproductive to me!... You will surely agree with
me that academics support evidence-based decisions and the definition of an
NGO/NFP is not rocket science neither...

--
Alain Berranger, B.Eng, MBA

Member, Board of Directors, CECI, http://www.ceci.ca
<http://www.ceci.ca/en/about-ceci/team/board-of-directors/>

Executive-in-residence, Schulich School of Business, www.schulich.yorku.ca

NA representative, Chasquinet Foundation, www.chasquinet.org
interim Vice Chair, NPOC, NCSG, ICANN, http://npoc.org/
O:+1 <tel:%2B1%20514%20484%207824>  514 484 7824; M:+1 514 704 7824
<tel:%2B1%20514%20704%207824>
Skype: alain.berranger

--
Alain Berranger, B.Eng, MBA

Member, Board of Directors, CECI, http://www.ceci.ca
<http://www.ceci.ca/en/about-ceci/team/board-of-directors/>

Executive-in-residence, Schulich School of Business, www.schulich.yorku.ca

NA representative, Chasquinet Foundation, www.chasquinet.org
interim Vice Chair, NPOC, NCSG, ICANN, http://npoc.org/
O:+1 <tel:%2B1%20514%20484%207824>  514 484 7824; M:+1 514 704 7824
<tel:%2B1%20514%20704%207824>
Skype: alain.berranger

--
Alain Berranger, B.Eng, MBA

Member, Board of Directors, CECI, http://www.ceci.ca
<http://www.ceci.ca/en/about-ceci/team/board-of-directors/>

Executive-in-residence, Schulich School of Business, www.schulich.yorku.ca

NA representative, Chasquinet Foundation, www.chasquinet.org
interim Vice Chair, NPOC, NCSG, ICANN, http://npoc.org/
O:+1 514 484 7824; M:+1 514 704 7824
Skype: alain.berranger

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