[ncdnhc-discuss] time for a change?

[George Sadowsky]

Dave,

Perhaps you're right.

It's more difficult to deal with personalities than issues.  However, 
I've found in my experience that with the right people involved, 
almost any structure works well, whereas with the wrong people 
involved, no structure or method of interaction works well.  Based on 
that, I'd say that we have some people involved who are not helping 
the process succeed.  And I am not referring to you.

I've said this before, and I know that some of you will bristle at 
it, but I need to repeat it.   In ignoring the wealth of technical 
background and industry experience that people like Dave and Kent 
Crispin have, you are ignoring the reality of what makes the net 
work.  If you don't listen to these arguments and understand them, 
you come into conflict with reality.  Reality will win.  If you 
filter these people, you do so at your own peril.

A long time ago I raised the following question in this group, and 
tried to answer it in part:

"What are the issues in Internet administration that should most 
concern this constituency, and how can we best attack them in terms 
of coming to as consensual a position as possible?"

Now I think that is the right question for this group.  But I don't 
see discussion attempting to answer this question.  I see fighting, 
tangents, attempts at parliamentary procedures that end up in 
confusion, misunderstandings galore, etc.

I don't have a copy of my response to my own question, but I think it 
could be useful to focus on it.  What issues are central to our 
concerns, and how can we constructively deal with them.  I dropped 
out of this list, and took NYU with me, because I felt that the 
environment was so hostile to consensus that it simply wouldn't 
happen.

Is there any agreement that we are not addressing this question 
directly and that we should do so, or am I a lone voice in the 
wilderness here ....

George Sadowsky



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

At 6:00 PM -0700 10/25/01, Dave Crocker wrote:
>At 05:47 PM 10/25/2001, George SADOWSKY wrote:
>>What I observe recently is a disregard for dealing with dissent in 
>>a manner that forms coalitions of people working for a common 
>>objective, a disdainful attitude that dismisses disagreement, and 
>>an almost pompous assurance that one is right, no matter what the 
>>opposing opinions.
>
>George, and everyone else on the list interested in productive discussions:
>
>Perhaps by now you have noticed that Milton directs his abuse at 
>more than just one or two of us?  Perhaps you have noticed that that 
>abuse is frequent, consistent and insulting?
>
>Perhaps by now you are tired of his behavior and tired of the very 
>damaging effect caused by his being our representative?
>
>Perhaps by now you feel that we need a change?
>
>Surely there is someone who is in this group, from North America, 
>who is honestly interested, as George describes, in forming 
>coalitions?
>
>Please do pursue this change so we can move from a tone of conflict 
>and tyranny, to one of earnest, constructive discussions, and real 
>consensus building.
>
>d/
>
>ps.  the nice thing about the fact that Milton filters my mail is 
>that we do not need to his worry about the distractions that come 
>from his responding to me.  my suggestion only becomes significant 
>when at least one of you decides to pursue it with the rest of the 
>constituency group.  if one of you does respond -- or creates an 
>independent posting without citing my own posting -- then we get an 
>initial indication of interest in the change.
>
>
>----------
>Dave Crocker  <mailto:dcrocker at brandenburg.com>
>Brandenburg InternetWorking  <http://www.brandenburg.com>
>tel +1.408.246.8253;  fax +1.408.273.6464
>
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