[NCUC-EC] In response to Tapani

Thu Jul 5 15:03:29 CEST 2018

Dear Farzaneh,

When I left NCSG Chair I did unsubscribe most mailing lists I was on,
but not all, and I stayed on ncuc-ec list (as other old Chairs have
done) after talking about it with Renata. In any case I think it'd be
up to NCUC EC to decide if my presence in and contributions to the list
are useful, not you.

As for the matter at hand, I wasn't contradicting your interpretation
in the specific case, I only wanted to clarify a potential
misunderstanding that "shall" would _always_ be same as "may", as in
some contexts that definitely is not the case. (The reason that
prompted me to comment is that I'd stumbled on that very issue
elsewhere leading me to research it a bit.)

My apologies for poor wording, I realize only belatedly how my
message could be misconstrued as criticizing you - that was not
my intent.

Sincerely,

Tapani

On Jul 05 06:47, farzaneh badii (farzaneh.badii at gmail.com) wrote:
> 
> First of all, I don't know why you are remaining on NCUC EC list while when
> you finished your NCSG chair you unsubscribed yourself from many of the
> mailing list. Are you making a come back? Is this because some years ago
> you were a part of ncuc ec that you are still here? If you are entitled to
> remain I suggest you only weigh in when you are asked questions as I do.
> 
> Second of all, those bylaws are a review of a team of people you had
> nothing to do with and you never ever helped them. You don't know the
> rationale behind many of its clauses and also you are not a legal expert. I
> sincerely recommend leaving NCUC EC alone unless they actually ask you for
> advice because you have been involved with something in the past (which was
> rarely the case unless it was really necessary.)
> 
> Ncuc has taken its decision to formulate a PC. I am not forcing anything
> upon them and I only provide advice when asked. I recommend you do the
> same.
> 
> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 6:00 AM <ncuc-ec-request at lists.ncuc.org> wrote:
> 
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> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. Re: [Ext] Re:  GNSO NCSG NCUC Election timelines (farzaneh badii)
> >    2. Re: NCUC PC (Tapani Tarvainen)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 11:08:06 -0400
> > From: farzaneh badii <farzaneh.badii at gmail.com>
> > To: Bruna Martins dos Santos <bruna.mrtns at gmail.com>
> > Cc: "Exec. Comm" <ncuc-ec at lists.ncuc.org>, Maryam Bakoshi
> >         <maryam.bakoshi at icann.org>,  Renata Aquino <raquino at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [NCUC-EC] [Ext] Re:  GNSO NCSG NCUC Election timelines
> > Message-ID:
> >         <
> > CAN1qJvCCDXT1REWYc4n5zQVS_in6tGdUaV1dRhJVOnz0-HvcvQ at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Are we talking  about the elections or the transition? Transition doesn't
> > have to take place right after the elections. And it should not. So the
> > current EC will carry out its tasks in Barcelona and then do the transition
> > after that.
> >
> > I don't know why EC is discussing  the NCUC elections now. NCSG elections
> > are going to start soon and Maryam is also doing npoc elections and
> > preparing for NCSG elections. By discussing ncuc elections now we will
> > overburden Maryam. The timeline doesn't look bad to me but looks like for 4
> > days it will be in parallel to NCSG elections. Might this confuse the
> > members?
> >
> > I also saw that in the list of elections Renata mentions the councilors.
> > councilors get elected at NCSG level. I don't recommend having that in your
> > announcement because I will announce it to NCSG and it might confuse people
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 10:16 AM Bruna Martins dos Santos <
> > bruna.mrtns at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Its not necessarily a problem, I was just trying to understand the
> > > difference between the timelines.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > B.
> > >
> > > Em qua, 4 de jul de 2018 11:09, Renata Aquino Ribeiro <raquino at gmail.com
> > >
> > > escreveu:
> > >
> > >> Hi Farzaneh
> > >>
> > >> Can you please add anything to Maryam`s response to Bruna`s question
> > >> below?
> > >> Current EC terms finish 1 month earlier than 12 months?
> > >>
> > >> Thank you
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 5:43 AM, Maryam Bakoshi <
> > maryam.bakoshi at icann.org>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > Hi Renata, All,
> > >> >
> > >> > Generally, it falls just before the AGM. If I recall correctly, last
> > >> years
> > >> > came a little later because of the transition of the NCUC Chair to
> > NCSG.
> > >> >
> > >> > The results of the election for this year would be less than 2 weeks
> > (11
> > >> > days to be precise) to the AGM.
> > >> >
> > >> > Farzaneh cc,d might be able to throw my light.
> > >> >
> > >> > —
> > >> > Many thanks,
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Maryam Bakoshi | SO/AC Collaboration Services Sr. Coordinator
> > >> > ICANN | Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers
> > >> > S: Maryam.bakoshi.icann | T: ‭+44 7846 471777‬
> > >> >
> > >> > On 4 Jul 2018, at 04:09, Renata Aquino Ribeiro <raquino at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Good question
> > >> > I'm asking Maryam to help us
> > >> >
> > >> > Em ter, 3 de jul de 2018 23:47, Bruna Martins dos Santos
> > >> > <bruna.mrtns at gmail.com> escreveu:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Hey, Renata,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Quick doubt: according to this calendar, we are not completing our
> > one
> > >> >> year term; EC last year was announced in early november - around nov
> > >> 6th -,
> > >> >> right after the Abu Dhabi meeting. Is it supposed to be like this ?
> > Or
> > >> was
> > >> >> it the case that last year's calendar ended up being delayed ?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Best,
> > >> >> Bruna
> > >> >>
> > >> >> 2018-07-03 22:52 GMT-03:00 Renata Aquino Ribeiro <raquino at gmail.com
> > >:
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Hello
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Please see below a table with the corresponding timelines
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >>
> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/11SlV5Nu4Kcy3Z829kVPUuXjingluiBgaoxewxhpEE_4/edit?usp=sharing
> > >> >>> [docs.google.com]
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Soon we`ll have to prepare to act on these procedures
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> NCSG EC is still discussing their timeline so NCSG Chair
> > announcement
> > >> >>> should come soon
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Best,
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Renata
> > >> >>> _______________________________________________
> > >> >>> NCUC-EC mailing list
> > >> >>> NCUC-EC at lists.ncuc.org
> > >> >>> https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-ec [
> > >> lists.ncuc.org]
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> --
> > >> >> Bruna Martins dos Santos
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Skype ID: bruna.martinsantos
> > >> >> @boomartins
> > >>
> > > --
> > Farzaneh
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> > http://lists.ncuc.org/pipermail/ncuc-ec/attachments/20180704/5e86130f/attachment-0001.html
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 10:21:06 -0500
> > From: Tapani Tarvainen <ncuc at tapani.tarvainen.info>
> > To: ncuc-ec at lists.ncuc.org
> > Subject: Re: [NCUC-EC] NCUC PC
> > Message-ID: <20180704152105.GB30660 at jay.tarvainen.info>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> >
> > Hi Farzaneh,
> >
> > Actually "shall" is not same as "may", it can also mean "must", or
> > something a bit different than either, depending on context and
> > jurisdiction. (I am aware of US Supreme Court 2013 decision Arizona v.
> > The Inter Tribal Council of Arizona, Inc. It does not answer the
> > question definitively in general.)
> >
> > Perhaps "may" is the more reasonable interpretation in this case,
> > but it's not entirely obvious and in general it pays to be careful
> > about ambiguities with "shall".
> >
> > E.g., Black's Law Dictionary:
> >
> > 'What is SHALL?
> >
> > As used in statutes and similar instruments, this word is generally
> > imperative or mandatory; but it may be construed as merely permissive
> > or directory, (as equivalent to “may,”) to carry out the legislative
> > intention and In cases where no right or benefit to any one depends on
> > its being taken in the imperative sense, and where no public or
> > private right is impaired by its interpretation in the other sense.'
> >
> > https://thelawdictionary.org/shall/
> >
> > Tapani
> >
> > On Jul 03 23:21, farzaneh badii (farzaneh.badii at gmail.com) wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > In response to Renata, I first want to tell you why the idea having a
> > > policy committee is in the bylaws in the first place. My opinion from my
> > > experience is that constituency's PC react when 1. consensus not possible
> > > at the SG level 2. They want to re-emphasize the points of NCSG PC 3.
> > They
> > > want to add to their public comments or modify it.
> > >
> > > The Bylaws say NCUC "shall" have a policy committee. Shall does not mean
> > > must, it means "may". So I interpret that if there is a need for a policy
> > > committee at the NCUC level then NCUC will convene a policy committee.
> > > Seems like you have established the need.
> > >
> > > Now we go to Renata's questions:
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > - The members of GNSO Council have seats on this safeguarded by the
> > > > bylaws. Is it their obligation or do they need to confirm they want to
> > > > be a part of this?
> > >
> > > GNSO councilors who are NCUC members are automatically assigned a seat on
> > > NCUC PC. They are not obligated to but it's their right to be assigned a
> > > seat. So no need for confirmation or acceptance. They already have SOIs
> > for
> > > GNSO council.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > - EC has to elect Chair and Vice-chair of the PC NCUC, I assume they
> > > > can be out of the safeguarded seats too right?
> > >
> > > [Paragraph B explicitly says: The Chair and the Vice Chair of the Policy
> > > Committee shall be appointed by the EC and the Chair shall also serve on
> > > the NCSG Policy Committee. ]
> > > This means that the chair of the policy committee should be serving on
> > NCSG
> > > PC. So only Farrel or Claudio can be chair. This design is on purpose.
> > The
> > > chair of NCUC policy committee has to know what is going in NCSG Policy
> > > Committee and see if there are actions required to be taken at NCUC
> > level.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > - Chairs of PC NCSG and NCSG are not referred in the bylaws as part of
> > > > PC NCUC however I`d take it they have to be included and consulted on
> > > > approval of the call as GNSO Council members are under their purview?
> > > >
> > > > Well, let me know if I missed anything
> > >
> > > These two positions are not mentioned because there might come a time
> > that
> > > these two positions are not filled by NCUC members. Then you don't want
> > to
> > > have non-NCUC members on your PC. But the Bylaws also say that
> > >
> > > G) "Other individuals shall be invited to participate in the
> > deliberations
> > > of the NCUC Policy Committee, including: 1. Members (or their Official
> > > Representatives) who are serving on GNSO Working Groups, ICANN Advisory
> > > Committees, presidential committees, and other policy bodies (standing or
> > > ad hoc) within ICANN; and
> > >
> > > So in effect, you shall (which means may, not must) invite them if you
> > want.
> > >
> > > Farzaneh
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
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> >
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> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of NCUC-EC Digest, Vol 66, Issue 11
> > ***************************************
> >
> -- 
> Farzaneh