[NCUC-DISCUSS] Questions and talking points for ICANN CEO

Michael Karanicolas mkaranicolas at gmail.com
Wed Aug 29 16:41:36 CEST 2018 

I completely agree with this, Thato. I can't speak to the potential to
alienate newcomers, but it certainly makes sense, and I have definitely had
conversations with former participants, who told me they left because of
the toxic nature of the discourse. It's fine to disagree, and to disagree
zealously, but nobody benefits when discussions degenerate, particularly
when the nastiest aspects of it are coming from our own side.


On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:11 AM Thato Mfikwe <thatomfikwe at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Farzi, hi all,
>
> Following the discussion, and based on your last comment.
> How do you think this kind of engagement amongst leaders is helping new
> comers engage on the mailing list and participate in PDPs and activities
> because the way communication is carried out at times on the mailing list,
> someone would swear that it is a slaughter house or a hostile environment
> of people who dislike or disapprove with each other.
>
> This engagement style you claim to have with Ayden has potential to
> alienate new comers from participating due to fear of being critisized, so
> I personally beg to differ, all members and leaders must respect each other
> and use the right tome in their messages, because some messages that go
> through the mailing list, to me seems like personal attacks.
>
> For example, the exchange between Arsene and Ayden on the mailing list.
> Something needs to be done to remedy this before NCUC turns into a war zone
> or battle of egos, thanks.
>
> Thato Mfikwe.
> Thato Mfikwe.
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 12:58 PM farzaneh badii <farzaneh.badii at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Ayden and I don't work on NCSG stuff to just tone it down. We argue,
>> criticize each other and resolve issues and move on. We don't frame
>> everything as personsl attacks. It hampers freedom of speech.
>>
>> Members that lose interest in NCSG because we openly criticize are
>> probably not interested in ncsg in the first place.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:51 AM Wisdom Donkor <wisdom.dk at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Wow wow wow, NCSG is becoming interesting and something else.
>>> The personal attacks are becoming something else oooooo. It looks like
>>> we are not setting good example for others to follow.
>>> Is about time we put aside personal issues and discuss holistically in
>>> other to get consensus. We need to learn how to say sorry
>>> sometimes when one is wrong and try to move on as one family.
>>>
>>> If this kinds of personal attacks continues,  members will begin to lose
>>> interest in NCSG and its activities.
>>>
>>> Ayden and Farzaneh please tone down a bit and lets toast a drink
>>> together as one family.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *WISDOM DONKOR (S/N Eng.)*
>>> *Africa Open Data and Internet Research Foundation (Co-Founder)*
>>> E-government, Internet Governance & Open Government Data and platforms
>>> Specialist
>>> ICANN Fellow / UN IGF MAG Member, ISOC Member,
>>> Freedom Online Coalition (FOC) Member, Diplo Foundation Member,
>>> OGP Open Data WG Member, GODAN Member.
>>> National SDG's data Roadmaps Advisory Board Member, Ghana
>>> National Secretariat Manager, IT Association of Ghana (ITAG)
>>> Ghana Energy Data Task-force Member
>>> Ghana OGP Advisory Committee Member
>>> Email: wisdom.dk at gmail.com
>>> Skype: wisdom_dk
>>> facebook: Kwasi Wisdom
>>> Linkdin: Kwasi Wisdom
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 8:55 AM Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Farzaneh,
>>>>
>>>> It is not true that NCSG did not have a position on this. It did have a
>>>> position and we asked Ayden to change the paragraph in budget public
>>>> comment  to convey that but he decided to delete it and we did not pay
>>>> attention.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I did not respond to this baseless allegation the previous two times
>>>> you made it, but if you insist on repeating it, I have little choice but to
>>>> respond.
>>>>
>>>> *This is untrue. The NCSG did not have such a position.* *You* had a
>>>> personal objection to the Intersessional, but that alone does not make it
>>>> an NCSG position. On the Google Doc for the budget comment numerous
>>>> individuals expressed support for the Intersessional (substantially more
>>>> than opposed it, which was three from memory). So there was no clear
>>>> consensus either in support of, or in opposition to, the continuation of
>>>> the Intersessional.
>>>>
>>>> In addition, there have been numerous threads on the NCSG and NCUC
>>>> mailing lists over the past five years where individuals have made
>>>> compelling cases for the Intersessional. Take this one, for instance.
>>>> <https://lists.ncuc.org/pipermail/ncuc-discuss/2016-October/019318.html> It
>>>> is simply not true to say that the NCSG had a position here, and to suggest
>>>> I somehow sabotaged it is laughable. If you look at the threads on our
>>>> list, I think an objective observer would say, more people support the
>>>> Intersessional than don't.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, this is the NCUC list, Farzaneh. I did not bring up this issue
>>>> on the NCSG list asking for a response from the NCSG Chair. Rather, as an
>>>> NCUC member myself, I asked the NCUC Chair and her Executive Committee to
>>>> justify their actions *as they negatively impact NCUC members.* The
>>>> catalyst for my question was the NCUC Chair stating she would speak to the
>>>> CEO about building our capacity development, when pre-approved resources
>>>> which could be re-purposed for capacity development are being rejected with
>>>> no justification.
>>>>
>>>> This really won't affect me personally, I only wanted to save the
>>>> volunteers time and energy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This also does not impact me personally. I am busy enough at the
>>>> moment. But having been fortunate enough to participate in two
>>>> Intersessionals, I know how important this forum is and strongly believe
>>>> other NCUC members should be able to participate in it. To shut the door to
>>>> others on something I have personally benefited from, well, I won’t do it.
>>>> As past delegates we have a duty to improve the Intersessional where it
>>>> needs improving, not to harm the NCUC by rejecting a core item in the
>>>> budget. And given how difficult it is for something to progress from being
>>>> a pilot program to a core budget item should also say something about how
>>>> important it is perceived by other Stakeholder Groups and by ICANN org.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>
>>>> Ayden Férdeline
>>>>
>>>> On 29 Aug 2018, at 09:17, farzaneh badii <farzaneh.badii at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Stephanie
>>>>
>>>> I find your email utterly offensive. This was not a decision that was
>>>> discussed last minute. It was something we discussed over and over during
>>>> my term before I even decided to step down (in February). It is not true
>>>> that NCSG did not have a position on this. It did have a position and we
>>>> asked Ayden to change the paragraph in budget public comment  to convey
>>>> that but he decided to delete it and we did not pay attention. I am always
>>>> for consulting with members and have included them in decision making as
>>>> much as I could any attempt to imply otherwise is just unfair.
>>>>
>>>> But I guess it's easy to criticize. We have an expression that says
>>>> this camel will sleep at your door too. It will. In fact this camel sleeps
>>>> at every chair's door. [of course the Middle Eastener has a camel in the
>>>> expression]
>>>>
>>>> This really won't affect me personally, I only wanted to save the
>>>> volunteers time and energy. But let the travel circus continue its
>>>> missionless intersessionals. We can discuss this on NCSG mailing list or
>>>> simply leave it and see what CSG says.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Farzaneh
>>>>
>>>> I have pasted the discussions for others to know:
>>>>
>>>> --------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>> From: Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com>
>>>> Date: Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 3:57 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [NCSG-PC] [Draft] Proposed NCSG Comment on the FY19 Budget
>>>> To: Rafik Dammak <rafik.dammak at gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: ncsg-pc at lists.ncsg.is <ncsg-pc at lists.ncsg.is>, Milton Mueller <
>>>> milton at gatech.edu>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your comments on the Budget in the Google Doc, Rafik; I've
>>>> replied directly and done my best to resolve your concerns. In particular
>>>> please note the re-worded paragraph # 9 (constituency travellers). I'll put
>>>> your question in #6 to Xavier on Monday when the [GNSO Council] Standing
>>>> Committee on Budget and Operations has its next call with Finance.
>>>>
>>>> I have now removed the paragraph about the Intersessional, as perhaps
>>>> it is better to be silent here rather than to praise something which may
>>>> not have widespread support. This year's Intersessional was a trainwreck
>>>> but I do think this is a disaster we have to own. Last year's
>>>> Intersessional was brilliant. What was the difference? It wasn't content
>>>> (as you said Rafik, the content rarely changes), but I do think it was the
>>>> participant mix. Our 'side' was too silent at this year's meeting and we
>>>> didn't have enough strong voices to counter the perspectives being shared
>>>> by the CSG. When I think back to Reykjavik, I remember how great it was
>>>> having Kathy and others engaging in real debates with the CSG. I didn't see
>>>> enough of that this year; I cannot even think of any action items that came
>>>> out of the forum. With the suggestion circulating (at least during the
>>>> Council's Strategic Planning Session) that we may need to go down from 3 to
>>>> 2 ICANN public meetings per year for budgetary reasons, and may want to tie
>>>> a Council meeting in with the GDD Summit, I am reluctant to relinquish any
>>>> support allocated to us that has made the core budget. But perhaps we could
>>>> advocate tying the Intersessional in with the GDD Summit, an idea floated
>>>> last year? I could see real benefits to that; on some issues, the
>>>> contracted parties are our allies...
>>>>
>>>> Another thing: the Additional Budget Requests (ABRs). I made the point
>>>> in this comment that I think it is wrong to cut this community support,
>>>> because I feel very strongly that to make small cuts here which impact us,
>>>> without tackling structural issues where the real costs lie, is the wrong
>>>> approach. But how on earth could we expect ICANN to approve some of them?
>>>> Some which 'we' submitted are genuinely embarrassing and would be an
>>>> inappropriate use of funds if approved. I have not said anything on the
>>>> main mailing list BUT ones like this, i.e. an NCUC board game
>>>> <https://lists.ncuc.org/pipermail/ncuc-ec/2018-February/008789.html>,
>>>> should never have been submitted (in my opinion) and harm our reputation.
>>>> Their submission was an Executive decision made without public consultation
>>>> on the discussion list. I don't want this to sound like an attack against
>>>> anyone, as that is not my intention, but I think we need to do some kind of
>>>> internal reflection before submitting requests. This request for a board
>>>> game will be seen by the entire community, will be mocked, and let's be
>>>> real, won't be approved (nor should it!). Why do this to our reputation?
>>>>
>>>> Ayden
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On 9 February 2018 8:07 AM, Rafik Dammak <rafik.dammak at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Ayden,
>>>>
>>>> thanks for the draft which is coming at a good time and allow us to
>>>> work on it without pressure,
>>>> about the intercessional which is a separate topic not necessarily
>>>> related to the budget, I am for an evaluation and assessment. I am not that
>>>> convinced that issues were a matter of planning. The content is almost the
>>>> same every year, just with small changes of few topics. I think after 5
>>>> years or more, it is a good time to review and think about improvement. I
>>>> believe our CSG friends will be open and welcome that. Organizing it every
>>>> other year can provide that opportunity and possibility for real change.
>>>>
>>>> I will review the budget and add my comments there.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Rafik
>>>>
>>>> 2018-02-09 6:21 GMT+09:00 Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> I think this year's Intersessional was unsuccessful, partially because
>>>>> of insufficient planning on our part, as well as the wrong delegates being
>>>>> in attendance. But I do think the concept itself is a good one and one
>>>>> which should continue. I am happy to remove this paragraph from the
>>>>> document altogether, however, if we do not have a common agreement on their
>>>>> value. I don't think it ranks among our most pressing concerns!
>>>>>
>>>>> Ayden
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>> On 8 February 2018 10:14 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina <t.tropina at mpicc.de>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I am one of those who questions the value of the intersessionals.
>>>>>
>>>>> I won't support continuing them every year. Every other year is a
>>>>> compromise I can accept.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Tanya
>>>>>
>>>>> On 08/02/18 20:14, Mueller, Milton L wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Ayden
>>>>>
>>>>> I’ve had a chance to read your comments and congratulate you on doing
>>>>> so much work to go through the budget and prepare an intelligent evaluation
>>>>> of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with most of the comments but propose a few minor amendments
>>>>> here and there, which I will put onto the Google doc using suggest mode.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only point of disagreement is #17 your support for continued
>>>>> intersessionals. I don’t think there is consensus on that and in fact after
>>>>> the last one I heard several people who supported them question their value
>>>>> or frequency. A good middle ground might be to have them once every other
>>>>> year.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, I’ll enter my comments on the doc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr. Milton L Mueller
>>>>>
>>>>> Professor, School of Public Policy <http://spp.gatech.edu/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Georgia Institute of Technology
>>>>>
>>>>> Internet Governance Project
>>>>>
>>>>> http://internetgovernance.org/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Ayden Férdeline [mailto:icann at ferdeline.com
>>>>> <icann at ferdeline.com>]
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 7:27 AM
>>>>> *To:* ncsg-pc <ncsg-pc at lists.ncsg.is> <ncsg-pc at lists.ncsg.is>;
>>>>> Mueller, Milton L <milton at gatech.edu> <milton at gatech.edu>;
>>>>> crg at ISOC-CR.ORG; paul.rosenzweig at REDBRANCHCONSULTING.COM; Corinne
>>>>> Cath <corinnecath at gmail.com> <corinnecath at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Subject:* [Draft] Proposed NCSG Comment on the FY19 Budget
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have prepared a first draft of a proposed NCSG comment on the FY19
>>>>> budget. This took quite some time to comb through, and I might have missed
>>>>> some things. So before I share this comment on the main discussion list and
>>>>> face the inevitable wrath of criticism and dislike, I thought I might share
>>>>> it here to get some initial feedback. I have also cc'd in a few other
>>>>> people who might not be on this mailing list but who I think might be able
>>>>> to offer some constructive edits on its contents:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tBia4z5QQFGz9vFUQUkS0lbZNqU6C5n4pyUmlH3m8e8/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Many thanks for your help,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ayden
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> P.S. Carlos, if one sentence looks familiar, it's because I copied and
>>>>> pasted it from an email you sent to the NCSG list last year re: our Reserve
>>>>> Fund comment. I hope this is okay. Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:55 AM Stephanie Perrin <
>>>> stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The principle is the following, in my view:  outgoing council and
>>>>> chair should not make decisions for incoming, when they will not be there
>>>>> in office (i.e. to do the work.  They should consult.  If it is too late to
>>>>> change this decision, I can assure you that next year, I will consult the
>>>>> incoming folks to get their views.
>>>>>
>>>>> As Ayden says, forfeiting such a large budget amount is a pity.  We
>>>>> could have figured out how to make it useful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephanie Perrin
>>>>> On 2018-08-28 23:23, Mueller, Milton L wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi, Ayden
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don’t agree with this:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At stake here is also the principle of membership consultation. The
>>>>> NCUC Executive Committee, as evidenced on its list, has decided to reject
>>>>> the funding for an Intersessional in 2019 *without first consulting
>>>>> with NCUC members. *This is unacceptable.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s perfectly acceptable to me. The NCUC EC is there precisely to
>>>>> make executive decisions that the general membership is in no position to
>>>>> make, or could not make in a reasonable period of time, or has no knowledge
>>>>> about.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Intersessionals are a resource allocation issue. They require tons of
>>>>> work and time commitments from the EC and the Chair. In my opinion it’s
>>>>> fine that the EC made a decision that the cost benefit ratio isn’t
>>>>> favorable.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We will indeed have a new leadership, and if that EC has people on it
>>>>> with different views, they can make a different decision in the future. But
>>>>> I am glad this EC made the decision it made.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr. Milton L. Mueller
>>>>>
>>>>> Professor, School of Public Policy
>>>>>
>>>>> Georgia Institute of Technology
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ncuc-discuss mailing listNcuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.orghttps://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ncuc-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org
>>>>> https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ncuc-discuss mailing list
>>>> Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org
>>>> https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss
>>>>
>>> --
>> Farzaneh
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ncuc-discuss mailing list
>> Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org
>> https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Ncuc-discuss mailing list
> Ncuc-discuss at lists.ncuc.org
> https://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.ncuc.org/pipermail/ncuc-discuss/attachments/20180829/e77a1777/attachment.html>

More information about the Ncuc-discuss mailing list