[NCUC-DISCUSS] FW: [Internet Policy] September 22 is OneWebDay!

Wed Sep 23 13:13:34 CEST 2015

Just want to draw peoples attention to this fantastic post from the ISOC policy list, came up in a discussion on internet.org and zero rating but is incredible insightful into the realities on the ground so to speak.

James

On 23/09/2015 12:00, "InternetPolicy on behalf of Siddharthya Roy" <internetpolicy-bounces at elists.isoc.org on behalf of email at siddharthya.com> wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>I recently conducted a workshop on internet access and Net Neutrality for a dozen or so Dalit transgenders living in a slum in Pune, India. They have been using a community wi-fi for quite a few months now. They are literally the lowest rung of society economically, socially and gender wise.
>
>They love the internet and the social media websites. It liberates them, even if in a virtual bubble even if for short bursts of time, from their horribly oppressive surroundings.
>
>But each one of them completely understood what Facebook was doing through their internet.org project. And what they also understood very clearly that what they were being given by Facebook and Reliance was the equivalent of waste food from the masters’ kitchen.
>
>From farmhands’ villages to tribal areas, I have over the past 10 years, worked on and off with ragtag efforts in rural and badly poverty stricken areas where one or two good people are trying to set up a computer with an internet connection. There too these people know very well that cities have better internet and what they get is degraded stuff. What they also understand is they have no real choice.
>
>The debate about whether bad internet or fake internet is better than no internet is more academic than real world since the powerful ICT corporations and ISPs will do what fills their coffers. And do so irrespective of what people say.
>
>The point of my email is put in a note saying — let us not delude ourselves into thinking that owing to our ‘expertise’ we can explain the obvious exploitation away to those who are getting exploited. It’s too late in the day to do that.
>
>About me — This is the first time I’m writing to this mail list so introducing myself : I’m a professional programmer turned mishmash of an activist and a freelance journalist covering digital and e-governance matters in India.
>
>— Sid
>
>Siddharthya Swapan Roy
>PGP : https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x071D6D239B301313
>
>
>
>
>
>> On 23 Sep 2015, at 14:08, Nigel Hickson <nigel.hickson at icann.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Robin 
>> 
>> Good morning; as ever you have captured the actuality; there is usually a balance to be struck; I recall I was only too glad to use the “walled garden” CompuServe services in the 90s as was only way of sending a mail! 
>> 
>> Nigel 
>> 
>> From: Robin Wilton <wilton at isoc.org>
>> Date: Wednesday 23 September 2015 09:57
>> To: Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com>
>> Cc: John Laprise <jlaprise at gmail.com>, parminder <parminder at itforchange.net>, Nigel Hickson <nigel.hickson at icann.org>, hellekin <hellekin at riseup.net>, Joly MacFie <joly at punkcast.com>, "internetpolicy at elists.isoc.org" <internetpolicy at elists.isoc.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] September 22 is OneWebDay!
>> 
>> Very interesting thread, folks.
>> 
>> I think "we" (that is, the developed economies, already enjoying the privileges of copious connectivity) have to be very careful, here. The phrase "white man's burden", emotive though it may be, is not inappropriate. 
>> 
>> On the one hand, I think we have a clear responsibility to ensure that, as we extend the reach of the Internet, we try to learn from experience and not extend the scope of existing errors and bad practice as we do so. To use another colonial metaphor, we should take care that we are not exposing new populations to diseases their immune systems have never encountered.
>> 
>> On the other hand, we should also be very careful to avoid "soft paternalism"; an attitude of due diligence towards new users can very easily morph into an attitude of "we know what's best for you" - which robs them of dignity and self-determination.
>> 
>> There's a delicate balance between these attitudes, but I think it's an important one to find. To give one specific example: we know from our own experience that it is inaccurate and misleading to describe online services as "free", if in fact they are paid for through the exploitation of personal data. As new populations are offered this wonderful new thing, we should ensure they are given an accurate, truthful account of the bargain they are agreeing to. (At this point, a "Manhattan for some shiny beads" metaphor may be forming in your mind... ;^\  )
>> 
>> Yrs.,
>> Robin
>> 
>> Robin Wilton
>> 
>> Technical Outreach Director - Identity and Privacy
>> 
>> On 23 Sep 2015, at 07:15, "Ian Peter" <ian.peter at ianpeter.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> What surprises me about this whole debate is that we all seem to be quite happy for the new service to be marketed under the name internet.org. To me that is a great misnomer, and it would be appropriate for the Internet Society to complain about the use of the term internet to describe a service which clearly is not the internet and does not reflect some of the core values and characteristics of the internet.
>>>  
>>> Whether those who carry the white man’s burden with missionary zeal feel that this is a suitable service to substitute for the internet in various countries where connectivity is difficult to achieve is another matter altogether. But I do believe that the Internet Society should make strong statements that internet.org is not the internet, and that the use of the name in this way is not appropriate.
>>>  
>>> Ian peter
>>>  
>>> From: John Laprise
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 1:18 PM
>>> To: parminder ; Nigel Hickson ; hellekin ; joly at punkcast.com
>>> Cc: internetpolicy at elists.isoc.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] September 22 is OneWebDay!
>>>  
>>> Hi Parminder,
>>> The example you cite is standard practice in many places. In the U.S. this is common practice. Then again print media is not heavily regulated here.
>>> While it may be well established in political theory, reality often diverges from theory. To be clear, I am not claiming that to be an optimal result. Rather, it is an acknowledgement that societies weight the importance of individuality and society differently. The U.S. clearly weights individuality heavily.
>>> This in part, admittedly, guides my own thinking on this issue. Large numbers of users and their interest in obtaining what they want from technology is in the long run sure to overwhelm the likes of internet.org. It is a short term play for fb only. It will take only a few users to notice the difference between zero rate and "open" internet and begin to look for ways to get around the walls of zero rate services. I saw this in Qatar where the telcos fought a losing battle against temp laborers who hacked to cheaply talk with their relatives. By the same token, the great firewall is technically porous with only a fraction of Chinese actually online. I doubt its ongoing efficacy as more users come on line. India in this respect is little different. Even today the government reversed course on encryption. Large non-nimble organizations are unlikely to successfully cope with the kind of dynamic change presented by a sharply growing user base.
>>> It is no coincidence that cultures that weight societal values over individuality are more vulnerable to change and their governments tend to be more resistant. Unfortunately for such societies, weighting  individuality is very appealing and difficult to resist. U.S. media does a fine job of reinforcing this idea (think of any narrative of the few vs. the many).
>>> Best regards,
>>> John
>>> Sent from my mobile
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 8:55 PM parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Tuesday 22 September 2015 11:29 PM, John Laprise wrote:
>>>> > Agreed Nigel. The loudest voices opposing zero rating services are users who already have access.
>>>> 
>>>> That is a mis- representation.... A lots of things get done in the name
>>>> of the poor people, like seeking to sell an inappropriate and unbalanced
>>>> Internet to them in this case, and one should rather talk with groups
>>>> working directly with such people than make such substantiated
>>>> observations.
>>>> 
>>>> Can one say that health labelling on food, or even their health
>>>> inspections, is most sought for by people who have easy access to food
>>>> (it no doubt must be raising prices at least to some extent), and that
>>>> poor people should be allowed to get food, and perhaps medicines, and
>>>> many other things, without the burden of such regulatory regimes?
>>>> 
>>>> Perhaps the example that comes closest to zero rated Internet is this:
>>>> say a media group comes with an offer that they will provide newspapers,
>>>> and even radio/ TV to poor people free (maybe even promise free radio/
>>>> TV sets) as long as they are allowed to do so without subjecting the
>>>> content to the required standards and needs of country's media
>>>> regulation - like clearly separating news and editorial material from
>>>> advertisements, there being a maximum limit to ad content, and so on,
>>>> media is indeed rather extensively regulated - would you propose that
>>>> media group be allowed to do such a thing?
>>>> 
>>>> I can think of no society or polity that would even begin thinking on
>>>> these lines.... Issues of appropriate social choices cannot be addressed
>>>> by individualising choice making, a pitfall that is well understood in
>>>> political theory. Why and how is then the Internet different?
>>>> 
>>>> parminder
>>>> 
>>>> > If there other organizations with FB's resources, influence and reach providing Internet access, I'd support them too. But, there isn't. User growth is paramount IMO.
>>>> >
>>>> > Best regards,
>>>> >
>>>> > John Laprise, Ph.D.
>>>> > Consulting Scholar
>>>> >
>>>> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/jplaprise/
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>> > From: InternetPolicy [mailto:internetpolicy-bounces at elists.isoc.org] On Behalf Of Nigel Hickson
>>>> > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 12:53 PM
>>>> > To: hellekin <hellekin at riseup.net>; joly at punkcast.com
>>>> > Cc: internetpolicy at elists.isoc.org
>>>> > Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] September 22 is OneWebDay!
>>>> >
>>>> > Good afternoon
>>>> >
>>>> > I have no axe to grind, and indeed am old enough to remember CompuServe…..but have you talked to users in some of the countries that may have service offered; I did last week in Africa. They were smart; would indeed recognise this was not the “internet” but given they could not afford alternative were willing to be involved.
>>>> >
>>>> > Best
>>>> >
>>>> > Nigel
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On 22/09/15 19:34, "InternetPolicy on behalf of hellekin"
>>>> > <internetpolicy-bounces at elists.isoc.org on behalf of hellekin at riseup.net>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On 09/22/2015 02:11 PM, Joly MacFie wrote:
>>>> >>> On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 12:10 PM, hellekin <hellekin at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I believe "The Internet is for everyone" is inclusive not
>>>> >>> exclusive.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >> I believe Facebook's plan is to connect people to Facebook and friends,
>>>> >> not to the Internet.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ==
>>>> >> hk
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> To manage your ISOC subscriptions or unsubscribe, please log into the
>>>> >> ISOC Member Portal:
>>>> >> https://portal.isoc.org/
>>>> >> Then choose Interests & Subscriptions from the My Account menu.
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > To manage your ISOC subscriptions or unsubscribe, please log into the ISOC Member Portal:
>>>> > https://portal.isoc.org/
>>>> > Then choose Interests & Subscriptions from the My Account menu.
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > To manage your ISOC subscriptions or unsubscribe,
>>>> > please log into the ISOC Member Portal:
>>>> > https://portal.isoc.org/
>>>> > Then choose Interests & Subscriptions from the My Account menu.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> To manage your ISOC subscriptions or unsubscribe,
>>> please log into the ISOC Member Portal:
>>> https://portal.isoc.org/
>>> Then choose Interests & Subscriptions from the My Account menu.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> To manage your ISOC subscriptions or unsubscribe,
>>> please log into the ISOC Member Portal:
>>> https://portal.isoc.org/
>>> Then choose Interests & Subscriptions from the My Account menu.
>> _______________________________________________
>> To manage your ISOC subscriptions or unsubscribe,
>> please log into the ISOC Member Portal:
>> https://portal.isoc.org/
>> Then choose Interests & Subscriptions from the My Account menu.
>
>_______________________________________________
>To manage your ISOC subscriptions or unsubscribe,
>please log into the ISOC Member Portal:
>https://portal.isoc.org/
>Then choose Interests & Subscriptions from the My Account menu.