EC deliberations on WGIG nominations

[Adam Peake]

Thank you very much.

There are some very good people on the list. What 
a shame the process fails to do them justice.

"Adiel is someone associated with the emergent AFRINIC"

You didn't know you were discussing AFRINIC's 
Executive Director?  Bizarre.  (Senior staff of 3 
RIRs.  Great people, unusual concentration.)

And what a shame you couldn't agree on nominating 
a chap who will be stuck in hospital until the 
working group's half over ...   %-)  (or should 
that be :-o ?)

Did you do any research on these people?  Bother 
even to read Robin's not about Marco Cappato?

I appreciate that you were undertaking a pretty 
thankless and hard task.  But someone should have 
put more thought into it.

Thanks,

Adam




At 9:51 AM -0400 9/6/04, Milton Mueller wrote:
>  >>> hcadiz at ph.net 9/3/2004 10:08:11 PM >>>
>
>   I agree with these names.  I would rather have Kilnam
>for AP but if he is not able to work because of an injury,
>Paul Wilson is OK with me.
>
>   My apologies for not having participated in the chat session.
>Our firewall system crashed that night and I had to do the
>system reconfig myself.
>
>
>>>>  "Valerie Gordon" <valerie_gordon at hotmail.com> 9/6/2004 6:37:34 AM >>>
>Milton I am still on the road(Barbados) but 
>running home from the hurricane today. The list 
>looks fine.
>Please proceed.
>
>Valerie
>
>IM SESSION LOG <some jokes edited> (9/2/2004, 9:30am - 11:00 am EDT)
>
>Never give out your password or credit card
>number in an instant  message conversation.
>
>wellings at epic.org says:
>oh that's funny
>
>   Claude has been added to the conversation.
>
>wellings at epic.org says:
>yay
>Milton says:
>aha, here he is
>wellings at epic.org says:
>who did that?
>Milton says:
>I think I did. there is an "invite someone to this conversation"  button
>Claude says:
>Hello!
>Claude says:
>Suddenly I feel so online.
>Milton says:
>
>Claude says:
>I'l have to refresh my firewall, I feel vulnarable.
>Claude says:
>OK, Are you still there?
>Milton says:
>well, if it's only us three, we may as well have stuck with  iliya.de
>Claude says:
>Well, may I welcome you to this brand new chatroom cortesy of  Microsoft.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>nope. shall we give em a minute?  i can go and 
>send a quick  reminder e-mail.   Thank you for 
>the welcome  "against_my_principles"
>Milton says:
>sure, send them a message
>wellings at epic.org says:
>Claude says:
>Claude? Oh, you mean claude Shannon, I guess?
>Milton says:
>I discussed the WGIG with John Mathiason 
>yesterday (a colleague  with lots of UN 
>experience). He says that it would be very 
>unusual, if not unprecedented, for a 
>Secretary-General's WG not  to support 
>financially the travel of its members.
>Milton says:
>claude shannon, the towering mathematical genius, welcome
>Claude says:
>I love it - MS boosts out my identity and I do 
>not now how.  Anyway, I registered as Claude 
>Shannon, a enginer
>Milton says:
>ok, I get it
>Claude says:
>  -- who said that the "digital revolution" would change the  world.
>Claude says:
>He said that 1948.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>I wonder how much time the wg members will have 
>to spend  travelling, etc. - whether they can 
>work regular jobs as well
>Milton says:
>what about logging of this conversation? Adam 
>wants to look over  our shoulders...
>wellings at epic.org says:
>under view, there's something about conversation 
>history. we just  have to figure out how to use 
>it. Otherwise, copy and paste. 
>wellings at epic.org says:
>http://help.msn.com/EN_US/frameset.asp?INI=macmsgv40.ini&H_VER=2. 
>6&H_APP=MSN%20Messenger
>Milton says:
>Frannie, stop swearing
>Claude says:
>As I said, I just join, you organise it this time. 
>wellings at epic.org says:
>sorry, can't help it
>Milton says:
>ok, copy and paste works. you just use "select 
>all" under edit  and then copy and paste to a 
>text file
>wellings at epic.org says:
>You can save a specific Messenger conversation 
>as a Web page that  you can view by using a Web 
>browser. This is a good way to save a  specific 
>conversation for later viewing without keeping 
>the  entire history.
>Claude says:
>Are we going to start or what?
>Milton says:
>yes, let's
>Milton says:
>Let's start with Africa.
>    Technical: Adiel Akplogan
>     Policy: Olivier Nana Nzepa, Anriette Esterhuysen, Thierry
>Amoussogbo
>
>Milton says:
>Adiel is someone associated with the emergent AFRINIC, i.e.,
>the address registry for Africa
>wellings at epic.org says:
>Olivier would be good.  What else do you know about Adiel?
>Milton says:
>how much do you know about Olivier??
>ok, so frannie, you have worked with Olivier 
>recently? All I know  is that he showed up for 2 
>ICANN meetings, joined ncuc, is very  friendly, 
>and is associated with thierry's african list 
>discussion IG issues
>Claude says:
>I for my part can only say that I feel unqualified to judge.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>he's also very well connected to the NGO 
>community there, head of  the african wsis 
>caucus, and chaired the tunisia crazy meeting... 
>ie "capable of working in an intensly 
>politicized environment"
>Milton says:
>that;s great
>Milton says:
>I did not know about the Tunisia meeting.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>I think he's responsive and very well involved - I'd like to  nominate him
>Milton says:
>so you prefer him over Anriette and Thierry?
>wellings at epic.org says:
>there's a video on andy carvin's blog of the almost-brawl
>wellings at epic.org says:
>I only know Thierry through here so others would 
>know better than  I - I was hoping he'd be on 
>this "chat"
>Milton says:
>whatever we decide, we must run the african 
>selections by  Thierry, get some discussion, and 
>confirmation
>wellings at epic.org says:
>agreed
>Milton says:
>what about anriette then?
>wellings at epic.org says:
>what did you say about adiel - did I miss that?
>Milton says:
>Adiel I know little about, except that he is 
>making presentations  about AfriNIC.
>Milton says:
>He therefore seems to have strong technical 
>qualifications and to  be someone like Raul of 
>LAC, with a foot in CS, business and  technical 
>camps
>wellings at epic.org says:
>how strong is his foot in CS?
>Milton says:
>don't know, we would have to rely on theirry for that
>wellings at epic.org says:
>okay, well. I'd say, that if he's strongly 
>recommended by  Thierry, it would be good to 
>nominate Adiel and Olivier.  If he  isn't as 
>highly recommended, I'd like to go out of the 1 
>tech, 1  policy framework and nominate Olivier 
>and Anriette
>wellings at epic.org says:
>thoughts?
>Claude says:
>OK, let'sl see what Thierry has to add.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>okay. Asia?
>Milton says:
>yes, I'd wait for Thierry. I think I would 
>prefer Olivier and  Adiel, but would want T. to 
>confirm it. Nothing against Anriette,  of 
>course, just think it is important to not 
>overrepresent one  org. (APC)
>wellings at epic.org says:
>assuming we nominate karen for europe
>Milton says:
>On Asia, I learned that Kilnam Chon, who would 
>be GREAT for the  technical person, had a 
>climbing accident which nearly destroyed  his 
>pelvis and some other bones, and is recovering, 
>will not be  able to travel until Feb. 
>wellings at epic.org says:
>oh god. that's terrible
>Milton says:
>I have great confidence in Eung Hwi Chun, IF he 
>is supported for  travel and If he is committed 
>to do it.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>chun over aizu?
>Milton says:
>Eung Hwi is deeply embedded in the Korean ccTLD 
>and IG community,  has ties to the cctld 
>operator KRNIC but has nevertheless  remained 
>independent and critical of it and the national 
>govt  policies.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>and pindar wong vs paul wilson
>Milton says:
>Yes, I would prefer Chun over Izumi for a 
>variety of complex  reasons. Izumi is very 
>visible and would be a strong player,  which is 
>good, however, he is mainly concerned with 
>process  issues - representation of netizens, 
>etc. and i think that the  WGIG will need to 
>have more positions on substantive policy 
>issues, which i think chun is better at
>wellings at epic.org says:
>okay. good reasoning
>Milton says:
>by the way, did horacio ever respond to this meeting notice
>wellings at epic.org says:
>nope
>wellings at epic.org says:
>don't know what happened to everyone.
>Milton says:
>OK, we will have to run Asian selections by him 
>via email. I'm  sure he will respond
>Milton says:
>On Paul Wilson v. Pindar, I think it is an easy 
>choice. However,  I am not completely happy with 
>either one. Wilson is great as a  RIR 
>representative. you couldn't ask for a more 
>accessible and  intelligent person. problem is 
>his "CS" status. This has been  discussed on our 
>list and on the caucus list as well
>wellings at epic.org says:
>oh, why?
>Milton says:
>btw horacio agreed with me on the list re: 
>Pindar being more of a  business rep than a CS 
>rep
>wellings at epic.org says:
>sounds like we're going with Paul
>Milton says:
>Another alternative is to nominate Chon subject 
>to health reasons  and Wilson as alternate.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>Claude, you there?
>Claude says:
>Yes.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>I don't want to put that kind of responsibility 
>on someone who's  enduring such difficulties in 
>life.  It's more than travel
>wellings at epic.org says:
>If he'd really like to do it despite his health, 
>then great, but  I can't imagine going through 
>that and taking on this task
>Claude says:
>I would put my trust in Chun and agree that 
>Pindar Wong has close  ties to business.
>Milton says:
>yes, the approach i suggested would make it easy 
>for him to  decline if he wanted to.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>i understand
>Claude says:
>We can ask Chon (about whom I do not know enough to judge)
>Milton says:
>but it may be just a waste of time to try to 
>play things so  finely, so maybe we should just 
>nominate Wilson, or no one at all
>Milton says:
>I did ask Chon, he didn't quite say no, he just 
>said that he  wouldn't be able to travel until 
>Feb.
>Claude says:
>I'm ... uneasy with discussing someones health on a public list.
>Milton says:
>Well, Kilnam put a powerpoint file with X-rays 
>of his pelvis up  on the Internet
>wellings at epic.org says:
>oh well that's good to know. I'd say if he's 
>miles better than  Wilson we should do the first 
>suggestion, if not, then we should  pick Wilson. 
>No need to make him look like a second choice to 
>the working group.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>don't ya think? I think we should present them 
>as having the  desired qualifications... our top 
>choices
>Milton says:
>OK, subject to confirmation by Horacio, I'll go 
>with Wilson.  Also, Eung Hwi is closely 
>associated with Kilnam, and both are  from Korea.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>great. Europe?
>Milton says:
>tough choices here on the policy side
>wellings at epic.org says:
>I know.  I'd really like to see what Marco Cappato does with this  role
>wellings at epic.org says:
>wish we could nominate Vittorio, Karen and Marco
>Claude says:
>I have tried to find out more about Marco and 
>probably will get  some responses by MdEPs.
>Milton says:
>so do i
>Milton says:
>when would you receive these responses from MdEPs?
>Claude says:
>Ah, within this week.
>Claude says:
>It's just that I never heard of him so far.
>Claude says:
>EP is slowly recovering from last elections.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>It would be good to have either Karen or 
>Anriette as a nominee.   I know this is treating 
>them like they're interchangeable, one  human 
>being, but they're both great and work together 
>so well  anyway
>Claude says:
>Long holidays.
>Claude says:
>Karen is my favourite, after all that I have heard about her.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>she rocks
>Milton says:
>He has his own domain http://www.marcocappato.it/
>Milton says:
>What have you heard about Karen? any direct experience?
>Claude says:
>Yes, I know that marco has a domain, but since 
>he is European, I  wanted some first-hand 
>impressions.
>Milton says:
>ok
>wellings at epic.org says:
>he's great on privacy, on intellectual property, 
>on governance.  Karen has direct experience with 
>the ICT TF - a long history of  experience from 
>what I understand
>wellings at epic.org says:
>My colleague here from Belgium is a huge fan of 
>Cappato - I could  ask him to give more info
>Claude says:
>I have no "direct experience" about Karen 
>(flights to London are  about €20,- at the 
>moment, but I have no time).
>Claude says:
>But everyone I asked spoke in the highest tones of her.
>Milton says:
>We could create a "global/nonregional" category 
>and put Karen  into that. It's appropriate 
>anyway, she's part of a global NGO  and is 
>Australian nationality, lives in Europe.
>Milton says:
>   hope your ears are ok  after all those high tones
>Claude says:
>Jaja. You know I meant respect.
>Claude says:
>My son just switched on his children song CD, 
>which makes it a  bit more difficult to think in 
>English.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>with a deeper network and more visibility 
>(having been on the  European Parliament) 
>Cappato might have a big impact, but she's 
>tough, knowledgeable and so involved and I 
>really want her to be  on there as well.
>Milton says:
>ha. i have chased my son out of the room, 
>fortunately, but  another invasion may be 
>imminent
>Claude says:
>Nice Germanism, anyway.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>< )
>Milton says:
>so, fw, what did you think of my global category idea
>wellings at epic.org says:
>wish I was listening to a german childrens'  CD
>Claude says:
>The EP has certainly grown. I am not always ... 
>convinced the EU  is on the right track.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>love the global category idea - love it
>Milton says:
>would you say it.....um, "rocks"?
>Claude says:
>Well, we still have this limit of about 10 people.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>it so rocks
>wellings at epic.org says:
>where did the limit come from?
>Claude says:
>It's a self-imposed limit that we deducted from 
>general political  experience and Miltons shoe 
>size.
>Milton says:
>so we are dumping Meryem?
>wellings at epic.org says:
>I wouldn't say dumping, cuz she's great too... 
>that's why she's  on this list.  But I'd say the 
>choice is between the other two in  my book
>wellings at epic.org says:
>Meryem is excellent on human rights, but the 
>other two are as  well and I think have been 
>more involved in IG
>Milton says:
>ok, what about vittorio?
>Claude says:
>I agree to Frannie.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>I'd like Vittorio to get the tech nomination
>Claude says:
>Vittorio... hm. He's pretty unique on the 
>"technical" list. No  technicans in Europe? But 
>the "Politicians" are stronger in my  view.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>Marc never nominated anyone did he
>Milton says:
>there are pluses and negatives imho. Plus: he is 
>ALAC, although  its claim to represent "the 
>public" is fairly weak, Vittorio is  committed 
>to the idea anyway; his technical knowledge is 
>quite  good. Negative: he is not a strong force, 
>fairly junior, may not  have the stature needed 
>wellings at epic.org says:
>I agree with all, except I'd say that when he 
>speaks up he's  great - always good suggestions 
>and speaks diplomatically and  with experience. 
>He's been very involved so his stature is 
>building... and as you say, there aren't many 
>other European  techicians for the pickins!
>Milton says:
>there are lots, we just didn't get any nominated
>Claude says:
>Well, Adam's comment was right that this is more 
>something for  the "policy" part of NCUC.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>Agreed.  Roessler, Keller... that's all I know
>So are we choosing Vittorio?
>Milton says:
>what does Mr. Shannon say, please calculate a result for us
>Claude says:
>Oh dear.
>Claude says:
>If we push Karen into the international category...
>Claude says:
>That would leave Vittorio and Marco.
>Milton says:
>Yes...
>Claude says:
>If we place Karen in Europe, I for my part would vote for Karen  and Marco.
>Milton says:
>that's another option
>Milton says:
>creating a special category for Karen could look a bit suspicious
>Claude says:
>The technical/political thing is just a suggestion, anyway.
>Claude says:
>Time warning: I have only a few minutes left.
>Milton says:
>Karen could "pass" as technical. APC got its start as ISPs, I  think
>Claude says:
>(yn)
>Milton says:
>Ok, what about North America? Iliya, you put 
>Drake's name forward  - any reason for that 
>other than that Jeanette told you to? 
>Claude says:
>Well, also I wanted to see how you reacted.
>Milton says:
>so how did I react?
>Claude says:
>We call that a "balloon" in German. Let it rise and see who  shoots it down.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>oh no.. we better hurry.  I think it would be 
>fine to create the  global category... after all 
>her work is global... this process  is global
>Milton says:
>but there is no real support for him from you?
>wellings at epic.org says:
>:-#
>wellings at epic.org says:
>I say let's go with Karl and Susan
>Claude says:
>Relatively well. But you, ah, smelled the roast. Another  expression.
>Milton says:
>There is strong support for Karl. And if anyone 
>has a right to  claim an ability to represent CS 
>on this WGIG, he does. Of  course, there is 
>strong opposition to him as well, which needs to 
>be recognized.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>Bill could actually be in the global category 
>with Karen.   Smelled the roast?  That's great. 
>What does it mean?
>Claude says:
>No, I am fine with having discussed him as a 
>candidate, he would  certainly be good on the 
>job.
>Claude says:
>Well, if you smell the roast you know that it is only a trap.
>
>wellings at epic.org says:
>Karl's one of the best on this list from all 
>regions in my  opinion.  I really want to 
>support his participation in the WG.   Ah, I 
>like "smelled the roast"
>
>Milton says:
>For the record, I support Karl but am concerned 
>about his ability  to actively forge political 
>deals that can get things done,  however this is 
>less of a problem in a WG writing a report than 
>it was on the Board.
>Claude says:
>Karl and Susan are a good choice. Like everyone, 
>I ama bit   uncertain about Karl but willing to 
>trust him.
>
>Claude says:
>However, I think he might be considered to have 
>too difficult a  past by some pople higher up in 
>the decision chain.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>thank you. who are we talking about?
>Claude says:
>It's a pity, because this is probably what some people at ICANN  want.
>Claude says:
>Karl.
>Milton says:
>Karl would be supported by some higher ups as 
>well. Susan is a  law professor with good 
>background in ICANN and connections to  other 
>issues. One reason I favor her over Bill is 
>ideological  diversity. I.e., what I know of 
>Bill's views would be represented  well by Karen 
>Banks but Susan has a different perspective that 
>favors decentralized decision making
>wellings at epic.org says:
>Ah. great. I support karl and susan
>Claude says:
>Well, it's OK with me.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>would you prefer something else?
>No, it's OK. I'm just trying to mask my enthusiasm.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>8-|  don't have a mask, but how about the glasses
>Milton says:
>Iliya, not claude, ok Adam?
>Claude says:
>Huh?
>wellings at epic.org says:
>:-*
>wellings at epic.org says:
>:-#
>Milton says:
>oh stop
>wellings at epic.org says:
>okay, latin america?
>wellings at epic.org says:
>I'd choose Carlos for policy and I don't know the techies
>Claude says:
>I'm afraid, but you will have to go there on your own. I have to  leave now.
>Milton says:
>One thing to note is that Erick sent me a 
>private message  withdrawing his name from 
>policy, for "personal reasons"
>Milton says:
>He authorized me to forward that message to you. 
>I will do so if  I can find it buried under my 
>inbox
>wellings at epic.org says:
>okay. good to know.
>Claude says:
>Once more, I am unable to decide.
>Milton says:
>Agree that Carlos is good for policy, can't tell 
>whether he wants  to do it, he showed little 
>interest in the nomination exercise
>Milton says:
>Latin America
>     Technical: Raul Echeberria and Florencio Utreras
>     Policy: Oscar Robles (LACTLD), Carlos Afonso (RITS),  Francisco
>Lopez-Bermudez
>
>wellings at epic.org says:
>Iliya, we'll continue the conversation over 
>e-mail... get  Thierry, Horacio and Valerie's 
>opinions, etc.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>maybe he showed little interest because he wanted to be  nominated??
>Milton says:
>Raul is acceptable to me as technical person. He 
>is responsible,  has some ties to CS, 
>participated actively in NCUC a long time  ago.
>Milton says:
>but we have that RIR problem again.
>Claude says:
>OK. Talk to you later. Let me see if I find something... What  about this:    
>wellings at epic.org says:
>didn't want to suggest himself?
>Milton says:
>I interpreted it differently.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>I didn't know how to interpret it
>wellings at epic.org says:
>what about oscar?
>Milton says:
>but carlos is a very good choice given that he spans ncuc and  wsis-cs
>Milton says:
>oscar is a cctld person. when he represented 
>ncdnhc within ICANN  he was very silent and did 
>little, so it is hard to tell what he  would do. 
>Raul would be much better.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>I think we should pick Carlos and Raul then and see what Horacio  has to say
>Milton says:
>you mean valerie?
>Milton says:
>but what about this name you put forward, francisco  lopez-bermudez
>wellings at epic.org says:
>yes, Valerie
>wellings at epic.org says:
>I like him, he's helpful on the human right 
>issues, but I'd  prefer Carlos because of his 
>involvement on the CS IG caucus and  in NCUC
>Milton says:
>ok, well, Raul and Carlos are pretty good 
>choices, imho -- IF  Carlos is interested. 
>Problem is, he is so good for these kinds  of 
>things that he gets nominated for all of them.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>human right - ha - meant Human Rights.  What does the "Right"  know about that
>wellings at epic.org says:
>Well, he didn't write and say no, so I think 
>Carlos and Raul  should be our suggestions for 
>the NCUC
>Milton says:
>ok,good so now we have to prepare the "winnowed" 
>list and send it  to Horacio, Valerie and 
>Thierry.
>
>wellings at epic.org says:
>so we've got...
>wellings at epic.org says:
>Africa: olivier and adiel
>wellings at epic.org says:
>Asia: paul wilson and chun
>wellings at epic.org says:
>Europe: vittorio and Marco
>wellings at epic.org says:
>karen as global
>wellings at epic.org says:
>LAC: carlos and raul
>wellings at epic.org says:
>North America: karl and susan
>wellings at epic.org says:
>look right?
>Milton says:
>yes, but unconfirmed by the needed plurality of EC.
>wellings at epic.org says:
>correct... but this is what we're sending to them
>wellings at epic.org says:
>i know you wrote that just for Adam
>Milton says:
>naw.....
>Milton says:
>
>wellings at epic.org says:
>:-#:-*:-#:-*
>Milton says:
>:-#:-*:-#:-* that's how your emoticons look
>wellings at epic.org says:
>Alright.  Will you prepare it? And can you save 
>this conversation  history since you weren't 
>kicked off three times
>Milton says:
>yes, I will save the log, and send a list via the ecncuc list to  the three
>wellings at epic.org says:
>I see yours as I sent them - do they look funny?
>Milton says:
>:-#:-*:-#:-* -- does that look funny to you?
>wellings at epic.org says:
>funny ha ha, not funny odd though.
>Milton says:
>Although we will use the ecncuc list that goes 
>to all, would you  like to take responsibility 
>for contacting one ro two of the  three if that 
>doesn't work?
>wellings at epic.org says:
>meaning, if they don't respond on the list? Sure
>Milton says:
>yes. ok? are we done?
>wellings at epic.org says:
>we're done.  you need to send me an e-mail but I'll remind you in  a bit