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<p>Dear Benjamin,</p>
<p>Thank you for your detailed and expert response. I am so glad you
and other NCSG members were in these discussions and fighting for
balance and fairness.</p>
<p>In your excellent responses to my questions (below, I think you
have outlined an excellent comment. You identified critical
issues and I join you in wondering aloud how a Stakeholder Group
can be responsible not only internally to its stakeholders, but
"externally to the wider ICANN community." </p>
<p><i>Wow, absent some truly clear guidance and limits, this is a
formula for abuse and misuse. <br>
</i></p>
<p>We have a long and proud history in ICANN of honoring the
dissenting voices and listening to their concerns. This is not a
"majority rules" group, but a consensus-based one. The Internet
needs to work for everyone (at least all good faith participants)
to have a voice - and all Stakeholder Group voices are separate
and distinct. </p>
<p><i>The idea that we could drown out a legitimate minority voice
by saying somehow is not accountable to the larger community is
heart-stopping.</i></p>
<p>I note further that every Stakeholder Group charter is reviewed
by the ICANN Board, and must be accepted by the ICANN Board. A lot
of this balance is considered upfront in our design and charter.
<br>
</p>
<p><b>May I recommend the following approach:</b></p>
<p><b>1) Can you put out a call for help in comment writing support?</b></p>
<p><b>2) Could you start a comment draft using your excellent
commentary and responses below?</b></p>
<p><b>3) Even if you feel your views were heard by the larger group,
it is still very fair to repeat our concerns with Principle 4,
and seek clearly explanation, guardrails and limits. A good
principle with terrible explanations and guardrails can be
misused and abused, and that would be dangerous to us and to
ICANN.</b></p>
<p><b>4) We ask our commenters to think about definitions,
recommendations, guidance and limits we can offer... <br>
</b></p>
<p><b>5) And we take this process <i>offline (</i>with those who
want to help) write the comment. <br>
</b></p>
<p><b>Thank you, Benjamin, for your leadership!! Tx to everyone in
NCUC and other Noncommercials who joined you in this important
work!</b></p>
<p><b>Best, Kathy</b></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/14/2025 9:21 AM, Benjamin
Akinmoyeje wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJR4JuGf9+0yB0jOFedD99GY8Q8kY7iAotEeruPJe-0GrCQAug@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Kathy,
<div>Thank you for the follow-up questions. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As a representative of NCUC in the CIP CCG, a group with
diverse stakeholders, it is difficult to be happy about the 5
principles; however, I can boldly say that the existing 5
principles have achieved consensus across the group members.
The 5 principles were inspired by or extracted from the ICANN
Bylaws.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here are the 5 Continuous improvement principles :</div>
<div>1. The SO, AC, or NomCom is fulfilling its purpose.<br>
2. The structures of SO, AC, or NomCom are effective.<br>
3. The operations of SO, AC, or NomCom are efficient.<br>
<span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,0)">4. The SO, AC,
or NomCom is accountable internally to its stakeholders and
substructures (where applicable), and externally to the
wider ICANN community. </span><br>
5. The SO, AC, or NomCom collaborates to further the mission
of ICANN and the effectiveness of the ICANN bottom-up
multistakeholder model. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The <b>4th principle</b> was a contentious item, and
different stakeholders still have their take on it. The NCUC
standpoint, which is also my belief, is that SO should only be
accountable to its stakeholders.</div>
<div>The <b>major</b> point of contention is that in the review
process, it is difficult to create a one-size-fits-all review
template for a diverse multistakeholder community. ICANN, each
group has different ways of evaluating its improvements.</div>
<div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,0)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><i style="background-color:rgb(255,255,0)">Are others from
NCUC happy with the fairness of the negotiations and
compromises? </i></div>
<div>There was a call for a group of volunteers to give
feedback, and we met a handful of times to discuss the
principles, as we were tasked with the duty to develop
indicators for the principles, so I believe those of NCUC
members who volunteered were satisfied that their input was
communicated and reflected in the final outcome. However, it
is important to remember that the principles are just a
framework, and NCUC (SOs) have to continue to follow the CIP
CCG process and ensure that they continue to shape the
discussion as well as the outcome of the process. The
implementation is also supposed to be flexible as applicable
to each SO/AC (group).</div>
<div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,0)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><i style="background-color:rgb(255,255,0)"> Do they reflect
good principles and protect all Stakeholders - are they
something we can live with? </i></div>
<div>The principles stemming from ICANN bylaws and used as a
framework (guide) appear to be a useful approach, as it is now
left for the SOs to implement as they deem fit for their
group. I have participated in the process to ensure the NCUC's
interest and voice are considered, but our community must be
vigilant and stay close to the process to ensure that we get
the desired outcome.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><i style="background-color:rgb(255,255,0)">Do you have
ideas for how we keep the two projects from overlapping and
causing extra, overlapping or duplicative work our (and all)
already busy Stakeholder Groups?</i></div>
<div>The best way to keep the process from overlapping and
causing extra work is for the Holistic Review Team to review
and continue the CIP CCG work thus far and consult with some
of their members who were part of the CIP CCG for some
guidance. I believe this will help consolidate the efforts
already expended on the CIP CCG. </div>
<div>They can also consult the ICANN community anywhere there
are contentions or difficulties.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I hope these few explanations help somewhat as the
conversation is still ongoing, even today, as I attend the CIP
CCG meeting, I will have these questions in my hands. I will
come back to the list if I get a clearer response to give.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kind regards,</div>
<div>Benjamin </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, May 13, 2025 at
11:43 PM Kathy Kleiman <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kathy@dnrc.tech"><kathy@dnrc.tech></a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Dear Benjamin,</p>
<p>Tx you for this detailed answer. Very much appreciated!
It is exactly the type of detailed background, from an
expert, that we need to proceed. <br>
</p>
<p>Let me ask some follow-up questions: <i>As someone
deeply involved in this issue, are you happy with the 5
principles of the Continuous Improvement Program? Are
others from NCUC happy with the fairness of the
negotiations and compromises? Do they reflect good
principles and protect all Stakeholders - are they
something we can live with? <br>
</i></p>
<p>Like you, I hear about the new (draft) Holistic Review
and am not sure how it is different (or overlaps with) the
Continuous Improvement Project -- <i>do you have ideas
for how we keep the two projects from overlapping and
causing extra, overlapping or duplicative work our (and
all) already busy Stakeholder Groups? <br>
</i></p>
<p>Also, could you or someone who has worked with you on the
important issues over these past many months, a draft of a
short new set of comments-- perhaps based on the January
2025 one you shared and addressing the newest questions. </p>
<p>You could lay out a path for NCSG to follow and we would
very much appreciate it! <br>
</p>
<p>Best and tx, <br>
Kathy</p>
<div>On 5/12/2025 4:50 AM, Benjamin Akinmoyeje wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Kathy,
<div>Thank you for bringing this concern up. Previously,
we have made efforts to explain the continuous
improvement process group's work on the mailing list,
and we had a few members participate and share their
positions on the process. We have passed the public
comments period for this group's work. NCSG wrote a
comment.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The NCUC has indicated that we are to support the
process, especially that SO and ACs should be
accountable to their members and the community as
indicated by ICANN's bylaws. We influenced the final
state of the five principles.</div>
<div>The concern we shared was in respect of duplication
of effort between CIP CCG and the Pilot <span>Holistic
Review</span> Team. </div>
<div>During the process, the GNSO also adopted an
approach to align the different stakeholder Groups
(SGs) on the CIP CCG, which is running concurrently.
This was done to ensure CIP CCG and the Pilot Holistic
Review Team's efforts consolidate with each other and
agree on the 5 principles of the
continuous improvement framework.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The <b>CIP-CCG </b>was formed to review whether
the Continuous Improvement Program Framework is fit
for purpose for each Supporting Organization, Advisory
Committee, and the Nominating Committee. </div>
<div>The Continuous Improvement Program Framework will
strengthen the existing culture of continuous
improvement while enabling the community groups to
identify areas for improvement and work toward these
improvements in a way that works for them. By adopting
the proposed framework, the community groups can do
what makes sense for them while maintaining
accountability to their stakeholders and transparency
to the ICANN community, <a
href="https://www.icann.org/en/public-comment/proceeding/continuous-improvement-program-framework-21-11-2024"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.icann.org/en/public-comment/proceeding/continuous-improvement-program-framework-21-11-2024</a>. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>After months of work and community engagement,
there was a public call for comments, and NCSG made a
comment as well as indicated here in the draft
document </div>
<div><a
href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XD1et1aNM4i-6d0-Vklx1iY-AcPx0UN6TDnJE4rcxPI/edit?tab=t.0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XD1et1aNM4i-6d0-Vklx1iY-AcPx0UN6TDnJE4rcxPI/edit?tab=t.0</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The questions asked by the public comments are
these below:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<b>Question 1</b>. Whether the Continuous Improvement
Program Framework is fit for purpose to evolve
Organizational Reviews led by Independent Examiners into
a Continuous Improvement Program led by the ICANN
community, to inform the eventual Holistic Review<br>
<br>
<div><b> a.</b> Do you agree with the five principles,
based on the current Organizational Review objectives
described in the ICANN Bylaws, to apply across the
organizational structures (SOs, ACs, and the NomCom)? </div>
<div><b>Question 2</b>. Agreement for the Continuous
Improvement Program Framework to be adopted by each
SO, AC, and the NomCom:</div>
<div><b> a</b>.Do you agree with the plan for the next
steps to carry the Continuous Improvement Program out
in two, 3-year assessment periods?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This was a final call to encourage anyone who may
still have any opinion on the issue to have an
opportunity to add their voice to the conversation, it
will also help our representatives to have some points
to discuss at the next meeting.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I hope I answered the questions, I am willing to
explain further without boring you with too much
information.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kind regards,</div>
<div>Benjamin </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, May 9, 2025 at
3:48 PM Kathy Kleiman <<a
href="mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Kathy@kathykleiman.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Hi Benjamin and anyone else who has been
participating in this process,</p>
<p>Often our leaders (and those who are following an
issue) lead the writing of the comments. You are
the ones who know what was discussed and debated,
what tentative decisions and new proposals are
controversial, and where are the rough edges that
our comments can help to smooth.</p>
<p>It is very difficult from someone completely
outside the process to come in "cold" and draft
comments.</p>
<p><i>Benjamin, I ask you and others involved with
the CIP CCG: What do you like? What concerns
you? As people involved in this process, what
issues would be helped by an NCUC comment?</i></p>
<p>Best and many tx, Kathy</p>
<div>On 5/9/2025 1:43 AM, Benjamin Akinmoyeje wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Apologies for cross-posting, I just
want to bring this to your attention.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I want to encourage members to review the
CIP CCG (Continuous Improvement Process
Cross-Community Group) for a<span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif">ny
additional comments you may wish to add
directly to the </span><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif"><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WiMGcNFESEJxvisbc6wcIA2l-G9pPOEELmz1B0CSEUg/edit?gid=1643030715*gid=1643030715__;Iw!!PtGJab4!6a5k3apVyYAzAXwbvk1_bXwLqh1_da70xDCL_UhHwZ108jtsPlSiBWLWg048vgSL8HQkBi8wf6tB2l2rkTpRiJFbow$"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Public
Comment Response Tracker</a>. </span></div>
<div><font face="Century Gothic, sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:14px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font face="Century Gothic, sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:14px">It only requires a
short time to review all the feedback
received and documented.</span></font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Have your final say on the process and help
us to report your contributions at the next
meeting.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kind regards,</div>
<div>Benjamin </div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr
28, 2025 at 8:21 PM Caleb Ogundele <<a
href="mailto:muyiwacaleb@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">muyiwacaleb@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hello Everyone,<br>
This is a follow-up regarding the previous
update on the ongoing work in the CIP CCG
(Continuous Improvement Process
Cross-Community Group).<br>
As progress continues, the latest staff
email (included in the thread below)
indicates that we are now at the final
feedback stage. There are two ways to
provide input:<br>
<br>
For collective feedback, please reach
out so that we can incorporate your input
in the comment tracker before the final
text is drafted.<br>
<br>
This community consultation process aims
to ensure everyone is included before
finalizing the verbiage. We welcome your
contributions and thoughts on this matter.<br>
<br>
Special thanks to those who have already
shared their insights, and particular
appreciation to Pedro de Perdigão Lana for
his excellent work during the Public
Comment period.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<b>Caleb Ogundele<br>
</b><br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">----------
Forwarded message ---------<br>
From: <strong
class="gmail_sendername" dir="auto">Jessica
Puccio via cip-ccg</strong> <span
dir="auto"><<a
href="mailto:cip-ccg@icann.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cip-ccg@icann.org</a>></span><br>
Date: Fri, Apr 25, 2025 at 10:20 AM<br>
Subject: [cip-ccg] Meeting Follow-Up
& Next Steps | Next Meeting 14 May
2025 @ 14 UTC<br>
To: <a
href="mailto:cip-ccg@icann.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cip-ccg@icann.org</a>
<<a href="mailto:cip-ccg@icann.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cip-ccg@icann.org</a>><br>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Dear
CIP-CCG Members -<br>
<br>
On Wednesday we walked through
feedback to Q2.a and welcome
any final thoughts or
revisions to the verbiage.
Any additional comments may be
added directly to the </span><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif"><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WiMGcNFESEJxvisbc6wcIA2l-G9pPOEELmz1B0CSEUg/edit?gid=1643030715*gid=1643030715__;Iw!!PtGJab4!6a5k3apVyYAzAXwbvk1_bXwLqh1_da70xDCL_UhHwZ108jtsPlSiBWLWg048vgSL8HQkBi8wf6tB2l2rkTpRiJFbow$"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">Public Comment Response Tracker.</span></a><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">
If no further concerns are
raised by <b>07 May 2025</b>,
we’ll proceed with drafting
the final verbiage, as
currently shown, for
publication on the </span><a
href="https://icann-community.atlassian.net/wiki/x/gveKBg"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">CIP-CCG community wiki</span></a><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">
and in the </span><a
href="https://www.icann.org/en/public-comment/proceeding/continuous-improvement-program-framework-21-11-2024"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">Public Comment proceeding page</span></a><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">.</span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"> </span><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">During
the next call on <b>14 May
2025 at 14 UTC</b>, we will
plan for <b>90-minutes</b> to
discuss the </span> <span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif"><a
href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RCz6PJcA7Y32geWgxdDawqqFc7RU1juLaRNdhaG_pwY/edit?usp=sharing"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">framework document</span></a><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">,
focusing on the sections
where updates were suggested
based on the Public Comment
feedback and agreed to by
the CIP-CIG. Please take the
time to review the proposed
updates prior to the next
call. If time permits, we
will continue our discussion
of the appendix and the
finalization of the
framework. </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">We
appreciate your time and
consideration. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Kind
Regards</span><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif">-- </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif">Jessica
Puccio</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif">Sr
Coordinator, Review
Support and Accountability
Projects</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif">Internet
Corporation for Assigned
Names and Numbers (<a
href="http://www.icann.org/" title="http://www.icann.org/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(70,120,134)">ICANN</span></a>)</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr"><b><font color="#000000">Caleb
Ogundele</font></b>
<div><font color="#000000">Email: <a
href="mailto:muyiwacaleb@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">muyiwacaleb@gmail.com</a></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
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<pre cols="72">--
Kathy Kleiman
Past President, Domain Name Rights Coalition</pre>
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