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<p>Strange in this holiday season to be having such deep
disagreements. First, I hope everyone's holidays were and are
wonderful. Happy New Year!<br>
</p>
<p>Second, if extra resources are made available to one constituency
(the Intellectual Property Constituency, for example), they should
be made available for all constituencies. We would yell to high
heaven if they were not. <br>
</p>
<p>Third, it is a fact that we leave many comment period "on the
table" and do not respond to issues of interest and concern to the
NCUC. Why? We hear many reasons including volunteer fatigue, the
timeconsuming process of preparing comments and the time-consuming
process of editing them with the NCUC. <br>
</p>
<p>History may serve as a guide in this matter. Several years ago,
we (NCUC) objected heartely to ICANN providing us with
administrative support. But we now have Maryam Bakoshi working
with us and could not imagine a world in which we did not have her
support. She sets up our meetings (arranging phone dialin and
Adobe Connect online), makes recordings available and similar
support for in-person meetings, facilities and recording. It's
critical support that does not change our mission and function -
she makes our lives easier and our meetings, recordings and notes
more accessible to our members.</p>
<p>So what if we had a bit more support for other NCUC work? I
spent some time talking with Angie in India, staff support for the
Intellectual Property Constituency under this special "Pilot
Program." She iis an individual with a broad background and spent
time as a journalist; she knows how to write and edit. But she is
not a lawyer (and many in the IPC are). She does not write their
comments (they do), but she does collect bullet points of the
topics that various members have identified for issues and
concerns; she does assemble them; a member does the drafting; and
then she helps manage the editing process to show the edits people
are offering (in one place for all to review). <br>
</p>
<p>Frankly, this type of work would make the pain of comment writing
much easier; we would be able to generate more comments.</p>
<p>But we have no fight (I believe) right now. The Pilot Project
ends on January 31, 2017 (one month from now). There will be
reviews and evaluations made public from the Constituencies that
chose to use this function, and discussion of how they used it and
how successful it was. The next round (if there is a next round)
should run parallel with the new budget year (which I believe runs
July to June). <br>
</p>
<p>But Ayden has a point. If the best funded constituencies have
MORE resources from ICANN than NCUC, than we are further behind if
we don't at least consider using similar resources.</p>
<p>And Milton has a point that, that WE have to manage and oversee
anyone assigned to the NCUC. Our message is a critical one in the
ICANN sphere and WE must control it.<br>
</p>
<p>But if other Constituencies have managed to balance a) extending
their capabilities without b) losing their editorial and
substantive control, then we may have a formula that works to
extend OUR NCUC capabilities, reach, message and concerns - at
least in some areas. There will be some reports that should help
us assess this in the next few months. <br>
</p>
<p>Not all gifts are Trojan horses :-)<br>
</p>
<p>Best, Kathy<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/27/2016 4:50 AM, Ayden Férdeline
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:Ix9AC8FeOrHohzwrhJmbzR_OYFvqWhkab1w2Ri2i7-vOMJT_9fcFNHjr12SFZQq2k8sWl5eXGVoC0_Jsl5eyjkdbZUORvJVvb1aCByNye2w=@ferdeline.com"
type="cite">
<div>Milton,<br>
<br>
When someone has a good point, I acknowledge it. But beating
down my perspective by saying that I do not “listen to the voice
of experience” neither makes yours stronger nor better,
particularly when we are discussing something in the abstract
that the NCUC has not previously tested. <br>
<br>
I did not dismiss your position; I listened to it and sincerely
tried to see things from your perspective, and have conceded
already that I do not view this offer of support from ICANN as
being without strings attached, but I still disagree with your
assessment.<br>
<br>
To quote, again, from the proposed framework, “the programme
will be designed to offer the flexibility for communities to
identify the specific areas in which they are most comfortable
utilising the new resource to assist and expand the capability
of their community to participate in the ICANN drafting
process.” <br>
<br>
We get to decide how we want our resources used.<br>
<br>
We could, for example, use this support to document our past
policy positions (the construction of an observatory of past,
endorsed positions in an archived and searchable manner) to
build institutional knowledge.<br>
<br>
The uses are endless, and it’s up to our EC to decide how we
maximise its use. <br>
<br>
It’s not about substituting our own people for ICANN staffers.
This is about providing us with basic support to help alleviate
volunteer burn-out .<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="protonmail_signature_block ">
<div class="protonmail_signature_block-user ">
<div>Ayden Férdeline<br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline"
href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline">linkedin.com/in/ferdeline</a><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="protonmail_signature_block-proton
protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="protonmail_quote">
<div>-------- Original Message --------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject: RE: [NCUC-DISCUSS] WBC Global policy support pilot
- is NCUC participating in it?<br>
</div>
<div>Local Time: 26 December 2016 3:51 PM<br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time: 26 December 2016 15:51<br>
</div>
<div>From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu">milton@gatech.edu</a><br>
</div>
<div>To: Ayden Férdeline <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com"><icann@ferdeline.com></a><br>
</div>
<div>matthew shears <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mshears@cdt.org"><mshears@cdt.org></a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org">ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org"><ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org></a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31,
73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Ayden</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31,
73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31,
73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">I
am not sure why you are not willing to listen to the
voice of experience. The main point of my post was how
much control we have over _<i>who</i>_ does the work,
and you seem to have ignored this question in your
reply. Clearly, we will have no control over that and
before you characterize this as a “generous offer of
support” I think you need to ask yourself that
question.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31,
73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31,
73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">I
also think it shows a lack of experience in policy
processes to think that we can _<i>outsource</i>_ the
ability to “assess the impact of proposals.” Someone
in NCSG will have to read and understand policy
proposals before we can be full participants in the
policy process. That cannot be delegated. Before you
understand the implications of proposals, you can’t do
research about them or assess their impact on our
interests. This cannot be outsourced, and if it can
be, I don’t quite understand what is the purpose of
having constituencies in the GNSO.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31,
73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31,
73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Note
taking and summaries of WG calls? That is a staff
function that already happens on most of the Adobe
Connect meetings I have been on. ICANN summaries are
fairly useful, better than nothing, but even there to
get a true sense of what is happening politically and
procedurally you have to be there. Staff members or
hired functionaries simply cannot be substitutes for
our own people who know what they are doing.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31,
73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31,
73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">As
a final note, Ayden, let me point out that you have
been a factor in bringing to everyone’s attention the
critical draft report on the At Large review. While
you and the reviewers accurately identify some of the
problems with At Large, you seem to not understand the
fundamental cause of those problems, which is that AL
is _<i>completely</i>_ dependent on ICANN staff for
everything it does. This makes AL a creature of ICANN
more than a legitimate representative of individual
internet users. It’s odd that you seem so enthusiastic
about leading NCSG down the same path.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31,
73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31,
73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Dr.
Milton L. Mueller</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31,
73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Professor,
School of Public Policy</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31,
73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Georgia
Institute of Technology</span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31,
73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31,
73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31,
73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="_MailEndCompose"><span class="colour"
style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></a><br>
</p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></span></b><span
class="font" style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> Ayden
Férdeline [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com">mailto:icann@ferdeline.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 26, 2016 1:21 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mueller, Milton L
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu"><milton@gatech.edu></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> matthew shears <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mshears@cdt.org"><mshears@cdt.org></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org">ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NCUC-DISCUSS] WBC Global
policy support pilot - is NCUC participating in
it?</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<div>I have not seen anyone on this list suggest that we
want to outsource the “drafting [of] our own policy
statements and developing our own positions”. If that
was the only offer on the table, I don't think many
would support it. <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> My understanding was that there were five proposed
support areas, only one of which involved drafting
documents, and the others involved assisting us in note
taking or summarising working group calls, completing
desk-based research where we request it, and helping us
assess the impacts of proposals. We do need support in
all of these areas. In the RDS PDP WG, there are
literally tens of thousands of pages of reading
material. If we could have someone code these documents
and summarise them, it would be incredibly helpful for
all of our members participating in that working group.<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Importantly, and I am quoting now from the proposed
framework, “the programme will be designed to offer the
flexibility for communities to identify the specific
areas in which they are most comfortable utilising the
new resource to assist and expand the capability of
their community to participate in the ICANN drafting
process.” <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> That, to me, sounds very appropriate. It is up to us
to define the level of support we will accept, and I am
sure that is what every other constituency and
stakeholder group has done. We have not seen them turn
down this generous offer of additional resources, and I
am certain they were just as cautious as we have been to
ensure that the support they accept is assistance they
are comfortable with. <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Best wishes,<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Ayden Férdeline<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline"
title="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline">linkedin.com/in/ferdeline</a><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-------- Original Message --------<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Subject: Re: [NCUC-DISCUSS] WBC
Global policy support pilot - is NCUC participating in
it?<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Local Time: 26 December 2016 5:07
AM<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">UTC Time: 26 December 2016 05:07<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu">milton@gatech.edu</a><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">To: matthew shears <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mshears@cdt.org">mshears@cdt.org</a>>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org">ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org</a>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org">ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org</a>><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="size"><span class="colour"
style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Yes, we
did reject it. And we should continue to
reject it. The day we are incapable of
drafting our own policy statements and
developing our own positions is the day we
should declare ourselves intellectually
bankrupt and dissolve the constituency, or
turn it over to someone who can actually
represent the constituency rather than have
ICANN staff do it.</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="size"><span class="colour"
style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="size"><span class="colour"
style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Dr. Milton
L. Mueller</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="size"><span class="colour"
style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Professor,
School of Public Policy</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="size"><span class="colour"
style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Georgia
Institute of Technology</span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="size"><span class="colour"
style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<p>Didn't we reject this option when it was presented
to us? Unfortunately<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
22/12/2016 11:19, James Gannon wrote:<br>
</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="font"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif">Oh
great point, I had forgotten. Whats the
status on this?</span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="size"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="font"><b><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif">From:
</span></b><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif">Ncuc-discuss
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ncuc-discuss-bounces@lists.ncuc.org">ncuc-discuss-bounces@lists.ncuc.org</a>>
on behalf of Ayden Férdeline <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com">icann@ferdeline.com</a>></span></span><span
class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><br>
<span class="font"><b>Reply-To: </b>Ayden
Férdeline <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com">icann@ferdeline.com</a>></span><br>
<span class="font"><b>Date: </b>Thursday 22
December 2016 at 11:01</span><br>
<span class="font"><b>To: </b>NCUC-discuss
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org">ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org</a>></span><br>
<span class="font"><b>Subject: </b>[NCUC-DISCUSS]
WBC Global policy support pilot - is NCUC
participating in it?</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="size"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="size"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:10.5pt">Hi,</span></span></span><span
class="font" style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt"><br>
<br>
<span class="size">Whatever happened to
that ICANN pilot programme which was
to offer selected constituencies and
stakeholder groups assistance with
policy research and document drafting?
I remember being told in Helsinki its
launch was imminent, and had an
excellent discussion with a consultant
from WBC Global about it. Are there
any updates?</span><br>
<br>
<span class="size">Thanks,</span></span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="size"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="size"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt">Ayden
Férdeline</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="size"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline"
title="http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline">linkedin.com/in/ferdeline</a></span></span></span><br>
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style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="size"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri,
sans-serif"><span class="size"
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></span></span><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="size"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif"><span
class="size" style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></span></span><br>
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<pre>_______________________________________________
</pre>
<pre>Ncuc-discuss mailing list
</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org">Ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org</a>
</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss">http://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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<pre>--
</pre>
<pre>------------
</pre>
<pre>Matthew Shears
</pre>
<pre>Global Internet Policy and Human Rights
</pre>
<pre>Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT)
</pre>
<pre>+ 44 771 2472987
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Ncuc-discuss mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org">Ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss">http://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss</a>
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