<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Dear Milton,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Thanks for that clarification. However, my question still stands: so where should we be looking towards for 'unbiased' sources? </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Also - as mentioned I don't think there is a problem in using a resource (if it is one amongst several) that advocates in favour of anti-harassment policies, especially as you will be hard pressed to find the counterfactual: most modern organizations, global north governments, and universities that will argue in favour of the importance of such anti-harassment policies. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Would perhaps these UN resources be considered 'unbiased' (if such a thing even exists):</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><a href="http://www.un.org/womenwatch/osagi/fpsexualharassment.htm">http://www.un.org/womenwatch/osagi/fpsexualharassment.htm</a><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">And can you please specify some metrics you would like such sources to meet, in order not to get stuck in a re-occuring loop in which we are suggesting different resources --> called unbiased --> new resources --> called unbiased etc. Because I think everyone's time and resources can be better spend than in this back and forth.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Best,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Mueller, Milton L <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu" target="_blank">milton@gatech.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">What I mean is that the piece Shane circulated was advocating for anti-harassment policies and disputing arguments against them. That’s all. Doesn’t mean they
are wrong, doesn’t have anything to do with feminism, it just means you need to be aware that you are dealing with an advocate, an entity that has already taken a specific position. To build on your example, if we are having a discussion about the proper scope
and interpretation of civil liberties, and someone points us to an ACLU website and says “this settles the issue” I think it would be recognized as not an impartial source.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <a href="mailto:cattekwaad@gmail.com" target="_blank">cattekwaad@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:cattekwaad@gmail.com" target="_blank">cattekwaad@gmail.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Corinne Cath<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 18, 2016 12:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mueller, Milton L <<a href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu" target="_blank">milton@gatech.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Shane Kerr <<a href="mailto:shane@time-travellers.org" target="_blank">shane@time-travellers.org</a>>; <a href="mailto:ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org" target="_blank">ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NCUC-DISCUSS] Best practices in anti-harassment policies<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Dear Milton,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">What exactly do you mean by unbiased? If Shane had sent a similar email including an ACLU website, would you have called it biased? If I had sent a Dutch resource
would you have called it biased, because we have particularly strong laws on this issue? What exactly is it you are looking for? Because it is of no use to anyone that brings a thoughtful suggestion to be turned down, without any further explanation.
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Additionally, I do not see the danger in using a website that is an established resource for tech & academic conferences, atleast not as a starting point. The guidelines can always be adapted to meet the needs of this community. Shooting it down, without providing
an alternative certainly isn't very helpful. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">I know you keep bringing up the issue of false reports, and the need to protect against those. In my many years of being on teams that are the first to deal with
instances of alleged sexual assault at various universities and conferences, I have never had anyone bring a false report. But I understand if my n=1 example does not convince you of anything. Luckily there are plenty of statistics about harassment. For instance
<a href="http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/press/vnrp0610pr.cfm." target="_blank">here</a> you will research by the USDOJ on how many cases of assault go underreported I can send you a lot of similar statistics from across the world, if that is what you would like to see.
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Now the DOJ does not publish similar statistics for false accusations. Perhaps because there are so few? Either way,
<a href="http://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/Publications_NSVRC_Overview_False-Reporting.pdf" target="_blank">
this research</a> of the National Sexual Violence Resource Center (NSVRC) (which also has links to supporting research) indicates that the prevalence of false reporting is between 2 - 8-10%. It also states clearly that "Research shows that rates of false reporting
are frequently inflated, in part because of inconsistent definitions and protocols, or a weak understanding of sexual assault."
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">So - comparing the number of cases of harassments versus the number of cases of false accusations, I think we can say that the first is more likely to happen than the second. And I am sure
we can all get together to find middle ground and develop an anti-harassment policy that both respects those being harassed and freedom of expression.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"></span><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Have a great weekend all.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 4:46 PM, Mueller, Milton L <<a href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu" target="_blank">milton@gatech.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Geek feminism is not what I would call an unbiased source of information. And some of the information there is not reassuring; e.g., in response to free expression concerns it says "A private authority figure may reserve the right to censor
their subordinate's speech, or discriminate on the basis of speech, without any legal consequences." Great. Nothing to worry about there.<br>
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The statistics they provide about non-reporting are about sexual assault, not various forms of harassment. While I agree that non-reporting of harassment is a concern, I still think the policy should protect against or not encourage false reports. It does not
invalidate this concern to say that harassment is underreported, even if that is true.<u></u><u></u></p>
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> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Ncuc-discuss [mailto:<a href="mailto:ncuc-discuss-bounces@lists.ncuc.org" target="_blank">ncuc-discuss-bounces@<wbr>lists.ncuc.org</a>] On Behalf<br>
> Of Shane Kerr<br>
> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 5:34 AM<br>
> To: <a href="mailto:ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org" target="_blank">ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org</a><br>
> Subject: [NCUC-DISCUSS] Best practices in anti-harassment policies<br>
><br>
> Fellow NCUC members,<br>
><br>
> [ Only sending to NCUC on purpose. ]<br>
><br>
> I see concerns come up repeatedly in the discussion of ICANN's proposed<br>
> anti-harassment policy. Fortunately (?), ICANN is not the first organization to<br>
> attempt to introduce an anti-harassment policy. People have often<br>
> expressed similar concerns in those venues. So often that there is a FAQ:<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-" target="_blank">http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/<wbr>wiki/Conference_anti-</a><br>
> harassment/Policy_resources#<wbr>Common_concerns_about_adoption<br>
><br>
> In fact I've seen each of those issues raised either here or on Facebook (ug,<br>
> don't ask!), except for the Autism one (I guess that that's more of a problem<br>
> in communities with more geeks and fewer lawyers).<br>
><br>
> I'd ask that everyone concerned or otherwise interested please have a look<br>
> there. I don't know that this will make anyone less concerned, but it will at<br>
> least save us having to re-visit ground that is already been covered. :)<br>
><br>
> Also interesting may be this table:<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Code_of_conduct_evaluations" target="_blank">
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/<wbr>wiki/Code_of_conduct_<wbr>evaluations</a><br>
><br>
> It shows how people working in this area evaluate code of conducts.<br>
> (The proposed ICANN policy actually meets most of the criteria. Except for<br>
> the things that I mentioned I think it is not horrible.)<br>
><br>
> Cheers,<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Shane "Geek Feminist" Kerr<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Ncuc-discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org" target="_blank">Ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.ncuc.org/cgi-bin/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/ncuc-discuss</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Corinne J.N. Cath
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Ph.D. Candidate, Oxford Internet Institute & Alan Turing Institute <br>
<br>
<span style="color:#444444">Web: <a href="http://www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath" target="_blank">
www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/<wbr>corinne-cath</a> <br>
Email: <a href="mailto:ccath@turing.ac.uk" target="_blank">ccath@turing.ac.uk</a> &
<a href="mailto:corinnecath@gmail.com" target="_blank">corinnecath@gmail.com</a><br>
Twitter: @C_Cath</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Corinne J.N. Cath <br>Ph.D. Candidate, Oxford Internet Institute & Alan Turing Institute <br><br><span style="color:rgb(68,68,68)">Web: <a href="http://www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath" target="_blank">www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath</a> <br>Email: <a href="mailto:ccath@turing.ac.uk" target="_blank">ccath@turing.ac.uk</a> & <a href="mailto:corinnecath@gmail.com" target="_blank">corinnecath@gmail.com</a><br>Twitter: @C_Cath</span><br></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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