<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"></head><body ><div>Vendu!!</div><div><br></div><div>;)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>Please excuse my mobile brevity<div></div><br><br>-------- Message d'origine --------<br>De : Timothe Litt <litt@acm.org> <br>Date : 2015/03/18 7:52 AM (GMT-05:00) <br>À : ncuc-discuss@lists.ncuc.org <br>Objet : Re: [NCUC-DISCUSS] NCUC French translation project [was Chinese Translation Project] <br><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I won't get far into the French
argument: I'm no expert. But to Nicolas' point on the English
equivalent, which illuminates a larger issue:<br>
<br>
This is a common issue with jargon. To decide, consider your
audience.<br>
<br>
The way to understand how this diverges is to expand the acronym.
Here's a sentence from the home page:<br>
<br>
The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers is a
non-profit organization.<br>
<br>
If one removes the article, it makes no sense.<br>
<br>
On the other hand:<br>
IBM is a for-profit organization.<br>
<br>
Here, the acronym has been turned into a noun by years of common
usage.<br>
"International Business Machines" is a for-profit organization.<br>
barely works, because it's implictly<br>
International Business Machines Incorporated is a for-profit
organization.<br>
<br>
So the issue is whether ICANN is a well-known enough acronym to be
considered a noun, rather than something that people need to
expand in-place to understand.<br>
<br>
In an introductory document, on behalf of the audience, I say no.
In any language.<br>
<br>
Within the group of people who live and breathe ICANN policy and
politics, the answer can be different. The ICANN sure is a
complex replacement for one guy and his secretary.<br>
<br>
And that's the larger challenge for writing any document: know
your audience.<br>
<br>
Donc, je suis d'accord avec Jean. Troisième.<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Timothe Litt
ACM Distinguished Engineer
--------------------------
This communication may not represent the ACM or my employer's views,
if any, on the matters discussed.
</pre>
On 18-Mar-15 03:41, Jean Guillon wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:%3CCAC_mN47a5MnFXvhHx8ob8z3ZBUOO+_iRCryaFYQS9nZD-zbjYA@mail.gmail.com%3E" type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Troisième.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
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<div>
<div dir="ltr"><b>Jean Guillon</b></div>
<div dir="ltr"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.gtld.club" target="_blank">www.gTLD.club</a><br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:06 PM,
Nicolas Adam <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:nickolas.adam@gmail.com" target="_blank">nickolas.adam@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> This is a more
complex question than meets the eyes ;) <br>
<br>
There is probably 3 ways to go about it.<br>
<br>
À propos de ICANN<br>
À propos d'ICANN<br>
À propos de l'ICANN<br>
<br>
and I guess the last one is the one I liked the least. But
I'm more than willing to go with it though.<br>
<br>
It is true that we commonly say l'ONU, and that we have
used the <b>l'</b> most everywhere else when it comes to
International orgs. However, it's sometimes wrong. And
more often than we might think.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">L<b>'élision</b> consiste, en
règle générale, à remplacer par une apostrophe une des
voyelles finales "a, e, i" d'un mot, lorsqu'il ce mot
est suivi d'un autre commençant par une voyelle "a, e,
i, o, u" ou commençant par un " h " muet.</blockquote>
<br>
However, we do not think about ICANN (at least I don't) as
"L<strike>a </strike>ICANN" or "L<strike>e </strike>ICANN"
that we could strip that <strike>a </strike>or that <strike>e</strike>
and replace it with an <b>*'*</b>. <br>
<br>
For me, it's more of a "de ICANN" situation, as in "le
problème d<strike>e </strike>ICANN est que bla bla" and
not "le problème de l<strike>a </strike>ICANN ..." (where
you would have two <i>déterminants</i> in front of the
word) and that's why I abbreviated it like I did, using
the above rule. In essence, I determined that the
sentenced to be shortened by the <i>élision</i> was<br>
<br>
1) À propos d<strike>e </strike>ICANN<br>
<br>
and not<br>
<br>
2) À propos de l<strike>a </strike>ICANN<br>
<br>
<br>
So that was one grammatical reason. But a grammatical
reason that hinges fully on the first determination being
right (a determination that could be challenged: it *is*
possible to have "de la" in front of a word: "de la
tarte"). So the determination itself seems to hinge on
what is the most appropriate word category for ICANN. Is
it like a pie or more like Internet? Notice, not <strike>the
</strike>Internet.<br>
<br>
So the reason ceases to be solely grammatical and becomes
logical and relates to a category mistake that is often
made with many process or phenomenon that are (wrongly,
IMO) thing-ified (reified). <br>
<br>
I may have been too polluted by English (please take no
offense, I love Poe's idiom), but for the same reason I do
not feel it right to say "The ICANN is ..." and that it
sounds better to say "ICANN is", for instance; and for the
same reason that it sounds better to say "UNICEF is"
rather than "The UNICEF is ...", I feel it it is ugly form
on top of bad philosophy to emphasize a reified
(thing-ified) outcome, for some words referring to
processes and phenomena. <br>
<br>
Yes, English uses "The UN ..." quite a bit when it comes
to the United Nations. I have no idea why and I'll grant
that it almost feels wrong today to say "UN is ...". I
feel this form ("... the UN ...") is a wrong that will
endure because it has, basically. But at the same time it
doesn't look like we are going there with (<strike>the</strike>)
ICANN or (<strike>the</strike>) UNICEF ...<br>
<br>
I think that logically, it is a category mistake, the same
that many people make when they say "*the* Internet" (or,
its French equivalent, "l'Internet"). Internet is not a
thing, and language shouldn't thing-ified it. Internet is
a process, an emerging phenomenon. So is ICANN!<br>
<br>
So ... the fact that ICANN's first letter means,
precisely, Internet, the same word people so often wrongly
use a "the" in front of, kinds of stack on that first
determination on which the grammatical rules is then
applied. <br>
<br>
When we use the "ONU" acronym, it is the translation of
the UN acronym, and it stands for "Organisation des
Nations Unies". The word "Organisation" calls for the l'
in a way that seems impossible to resist, but I would
argue that sometimes, it is indeed wrong to think <br>
<br>
"la mission de la ONU"<br>
<br>
and that we should have probably thought<br>
<br>
"la mission de ONU"<br>
<br>
and that, as a result, we should have probably said "la
mission d'ONU" instead of "la mission de l'ONU". <br>
<br>
But I am well aware that I will not find that "correct"
élision anywhere and that usage has deeply ingrained "de
l'ONU". <br>
<br>
I wouldn't make a case for ceasing to use l'ONU, you know.
But I would resist (as I have in the past) any attempt by
proofreaders to make me change ICANN into l'ICANN <b>in a
personal text of mine</b>. This not being a personal
text of mine, I will go with whatever you think is best. I
guess I felt like I would preemptively right a soon to be
aesthetical wrong :) and you caught me red handed in
language activism ;)<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Nicolas<br>
<br>
<div>On 17/03/2015 9:56 AM, Mathias HOUNGBO wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> Hello Nicolas<br>
<br>
why you write "À propos d'ICANN" and not "À propos de
l'ICANN" ?<br>
<br>
we said "À propos de l'ONU" here <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.un.org/fr/aboutun/" target="_blank">http://www.un.org/fr/aboutun/</a><br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre cols="72">"And then God said Noah make me a backup I need to format"
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<br>
<br>
<div>Le 13/03/2015 20:05, Nicolas Adam a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> Here is the first half, which
is the most i could do today. <br>
<br>
I send it right now because I won't be able to work
more on it before Monday night, so if someone else
wanted to do some work on it then they can do so
without redoing what I just did. Since there is quite
a bit of neologism that has arisen around Internet
Governance, and translating them with equivalents
(with the view that they stay stable) isn't always a
straightforward process, don't hesitate to discuss the
choices I made with me. <br>
<br>
Cheers!<br>
<br>
Nicolas<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 13/03/2015 11:34 AM, Stephanie Perrin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">Huguenot... we bailed out for
England so long ago we are rusty! I must admit it
was embarrassing when I lived in Quebec, where folks
are not taught much history of those massacres, and
did not understand the explanation. You, on the
other hand, have such an english name....? <br>
Suppose we take the text in word and divide it up?
I have plunked the online version into word,
attached. <br>
cheers Stephanie <br>
PS some of these expressions must have already been
translated, anybody know which document would be
easiest to follow? I dont fancy dredging through
meeting transcripts if I can avoid it... <br>
On 2015-03-13 10:57, Nicolas Adam wrote: <br>
<blockquote type="cite">Ma langue maternelle est le
français. I can help with the vetting and writing.
You have french names Stéphanie Pérrin ;) <br>
<br>
Nicolas <br>
<br>
On 13/03/2015 10:29 AM, Stephanie Perrin wrote: <br>
<blockquote type="cite">Yes we do, I am not a
native speaker but can do a rough translation
which we could have vetted by a francophone. <br>
Stephanie Perrin <br>
<br>
On 2015-03-13 4:04, Arsène Tungali wrote: <br>
<blockquote type="cite">This is a great news. <br>
We may need to think of French translation as
well. Do we have french <br>
speakers in the NCUC? <br>
<br>
2015-03-13 6:44 UTC+02:00, Jia He <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:hejia925@gmail.com" target="_blank"><hejia925@gmail.com></a>:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Dear All, <br>
Yes, this idea is great. I have a
face-to-face conversation with Peter <br>
this morning . For the brochure translation,
we can divide the task into <br>
two parts. each of our both can translate a
half , then we invite the <br>
experts in CCTEAG (Chinese Community
Translation Expert Advisory Group) to <br>
Check it. CCTEAG is organized by my academy,
so it is easy to connect with <br>
those experienced experts who participate in
ICANN meeting for many times. <br>
Meanwhile, those experts can make sure the
words we translated is in the <br>
right way. <br>
<br>
We will see the Chinese NCUC brochure in
Argentina. <br>
<br>
Regards, <br>
Jia <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
2015-03-13 0:17 GMT+08:00 Amr Elsadr <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:aelsadr@egyptig.org" target="_blank"><aelsadr@egyptig.org></a>:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Peter, <br>
<br>
This sounds fantastic. Exactly the sort of
work a regional representative <br>
on the EC should be undertaking!! The best
of luck to you and Jia on your <br>
endeavour. <br>
<br>
Thanks. <br>
<br>
Amr <br>
<br>
On Mar 12, 2015, at 4:37 PM, PeterGreen <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:seekcommunications@hotmail.com" target="_blank"><seekcommunications@hotmail.com></a>
<br>
wrote: <br>
<br>
Hello NCUCers, <br>
<br>
As the Asian/Pacific Representative on the
Executive Committee, I would <br>
like to take this opportunity to formally
announce that we are launching a <br>
"*NCUC <br>
Chinese Translation Project*". <br>
<br>
In this Project, we will translate NCUC
materials into Chinese, enabling <br>
more Chinese to be involved in our
Constituency, to that extent to <br>
commit <br>
to the most diversified Constituency
within ICANN community in terms of <br>
language. <br>
<br>
This Project will be taken by a
translation team under the Department of <br>
International Affairs and Policy Analysis
of China Organizational Name <br>
Administration Center (CONAC) - my home
institution, together with my <br>
Chinese Colleague Jia He who recently
joined NCUC. <br>
<br>
Firstly, we will start by translating NCUC
Brochure, which is currently <br>
written in Enligh and Spanish, available
at <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.ncuc.org/brochure/" target="_blank">http://www.ncuc.org/brochure/</a>
<br>
. <br>
<br>
After that we will tranlate other
materials into Chinese according to an <br>
EC scheduled priorities list (which is to
be determined). <br>
<br>
It is aimed that we could circulate
Chinese vesion NCUC Brochures during <br>
ICANN 53 to be held in Buenos Aires in
late June. <br>
<br>
In launching this thread, hope more
NCUCers who would like to join in <br>
other kind of language tranlation work
take up a similar initiative. <br>
<br>
Thanks very much for your attention. <br>
<br>
Best Regards <br>
<br>
Zhang Zuan / Peter Green <br>
<br>
<br>
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