<div dir="ltr"><br><div>And BTW, you are wrong ... perhaps you were in a different court ...</div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://www.eff.org/press/releases/federal-judge-allows-effs-nsa-mass-spying-case-proceed">https://www.eff.org/press/releases/federal-judge-allows-effs-nsa-mass-spying-case-proceed</a><br>
</div><div><br></div><div>-J</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Marc Perkel <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:marc@churchofreality.org" target="_blank">marc@churchofreality.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    I'm not a lawyer but I have extensive legal experience. You can't
    sue the USG because they claim State Secrets Immunity and the judge
    dismisses the case. I have been in court and watch it happen as the
    EFF tried to do just that.<div><div class="h5"><br>
    <br>
    <div>On 10/28/2013 10:32 AM, Jorge Amodio
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr"><br>
        <div>I'm not a lawyer and qualified to judge if it is illegal or
          not, are you ? If so, just sue the USG.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>-J</div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Marc Perkel <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:marc@churchofreality.org" target="_blank">marc@churchofreality.org</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> What the USG is doing
              is highly illegal. However because the president and
              congress choose to ignore the constitution they can get
              away with it. And we have no right to inflict ourselves on
              the rest of the world.
              <div>
                <div><br>
                  <br>
                  <div>On 10/28/2013 10:18 AM, Jorge Amodio wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div dir="ltr"><br>
                      <div>The NSA is a product of the USG, the
                        officials of the USG gave the NSA the mandate
                        and funding to do what they have been doing for
                        ages, I hardly believe that ICANN is even close
                        to be the right organization to tackle that
                        issue.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>If you are a US Citizen, call your
                        Senators/Representatives and express your
                        opinion, and put pressure on the big pockets
                        that fund the lobbying apparatus in Washington
                        DC so they change the agenda accordingly.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Protocol Names and Numbers have NOTHING to do
                        with the NSA, so it is not in the scope of ICANN
                        to fix ANYTHING related to it.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>-J</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="gmail_extra"> <br>
                      <br>
                      <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at
                        11:34 AM, Marc Perkel <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:marc@churchofreality.org" target="_blank">marc@churchofreality.org</a>></span>
                        wrote:<br>
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> I think ICANN needs
                          to increase its scope. I think ICANN needs to
                          become a UN alternative forum to fill a vacuum
                          to address issues like the NSA spying. If
                          ICANN doesn't do it - who will?<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          On 10/27/2013 11:01 PM, Dan Krimm wrote:<br>
                          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> To the extent
                            that Fadi is trying to address Internet
                            Governance generally<br>
                            (forgive me if I am reading too much into
                            his actions?), that would seem to<br>
                            be out of scope, regardless of whether
                            ICANN/IANA and general-IG both would<br>
                            benefit from internationalization.<br>
                            <br>
                            As for multistakeholderism, in principle
                            this all sounds great, but in<br>
                            practice it seems to have fallen far short
                            of its intended potential.  In<br>
                            practice is where the rubber hits the road,
                            and in practice MSism at ICANN<br>
                            has recently fallen prey to ad hoc action
                            when some "more equal than<br>
                            others" stakeholders decide the outcome is
                            not to their liking.  They<br>
                            apparently start to think along the lines of
                            "God is not Mocked."<br>
                            <br>
                            I see MSism as still an experimental
                            work-in-progress, hardly with all the<br>
                            bugs worked out, and not necessarily "ready
                            for prime time" in terms of<br>
                            overall world governance.  The only reason
                            it has worked as free from<br>
                            collapse at ICANN as it has up to now, I
                            think, is that the big Powers That<br>
                            Be in the world (nations and big
                            corporations) hadn't really seen ICANN as<br>
                            all that meaningful in their general scheme
                            of things.  The more important<br>
                            ICANN's actions become, the more the big
                            powers will pound on it to shape<br>
                            it to their desires.  I think you've only
                            seen the bare beginning of this<br>
                            in the ad hoc shenanigans of the last few
                            years.  Just beginning to rev up<br>
                            the engines.  MSism has not reached up out
                            of the play-pen to play with the<br>
                            Big Boys yet, as far as I can tell, and it
                            remains to be seen how it will<br>
                            fare if it is brought up to the Big Time.<br>
                            <br>
                            That's a big risk, IMHO.  Be careful what
                            you ask for, you might get it.<br>
                            And if it doesn't turn out how you expected,
                            what then?  This whole MSism<br>
                            experiment is a huge exercise in unintended
                            consequences (in the gap<br>
                            between theory and practice), if you ask me.
                             It's worth doing the<br>
                            experiment, but I'd be more comfortable if
                            the experiment were closer to<br>
                            completion before trying it out on anything
                            *really* important.  I don't<br>
                            see it anywhere near that point, yet.<br>
                            <br>
                            Dan<br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            --<br>
                            Any opinions expressed in this message are
                            those of the author alone and do<br>
                            not necessarily reflect any position of the
                            author's employer.<br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            At 12:59 AM -0400 10/28/13, avri doria
                            wrote:<br>
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Hi,<br>
                              <br>
                              In terms of legitimacy, isn't one of the
                              topics that needs to be explored<br>
                              internationalisation of ICANN, and IANA?
                              Isn't that a topic at the top of<br>
                              the list? That seems to be in scope.<br>
                              <br>
                              And the ICANN Board seems to be on-board
                              as Fadi was meeting with a subset<br>
                              of them (including the Chair) and AC/SO
                              leadership every morning. I wasn't<br>
                              in the meetings, and don't know who the
                              rep from gnso was since Jonathan<br>
                              wasn't there, so don't know what the level
                              of buy in was, but I heard no<br>
                              complaints on the ground.<br>
                              <br>
                              So whatever we might say about scope creep
                              Fadi is not being renegade.<br>
                              <br>
                              As for scope creep Fadi and the leaders of
                              the other I* seem to be acting<br>
                              in coordinated faction, so it is within
                              their scope, and would seem to be<br>
                              in scope for any one of them to act on
                              I*'s behalf in organizational<br>
                              talks with governments on a meeting
                              planning.<br>
                              <br>
                              So, in this case at least, I see no
                              fundamental problem of overreach by<br>
                              Fadi.  And, whether he fully understand
                              what it means, he seems to be<br>
                              carrying the banner of multistakeholderism
                              into these discussions.<br>
                              <br>
                              So, at least this once, I am not ready to
                              join in Fadi-attack.<br>
                              <br>
                              <br>
                              avri<br>
                              <br>
                              Sent from a T-Mobile 4G LTE Device<br>
                              <br>
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                            </blockquote>
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                            <br>
                          </blockquote>
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                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <br>
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            </div>
          </blockquote>
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    </blockquote>
    <br>
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</blockquote></div><br></div>