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<div>I was on the GNSO Council in the years we were developing the policy recommendations for new gtlds so I can say a little bit about what the debate and discussion was like in those days. Anyone who is looking through records of old GNSO policy discussions to find the words "closed generics shall be permitted... in the new gtld space" won't find it for two main reasons. First, the term "closed generic" only came up long after the GNSO passed its policy recommendations and after the board approved the recommendations. This term "closed generics" was a label given to certain new gtld applications *after* they applied to ICANN and others didn't like them, sometimes because they were business competitors and others have a public interest concern.</div><div><br></div><div>The other reason one isn't going to find the words "closed generics shall be allowed" in the policy debates is because we were not trying to imagine every possible "type" of gtld that would be created and have a debate about whether that "type" of new gtld is in the public interest and should be allowed. Quite the contrary. We were operating under the premise that we would come up with policies of things that would *NOT* be allowed and then allow all other possibilities to flow. So we were operating under the premise of 'that which is not explicitly forbidden, shall be allowed'. And all the debate and discussion was about what should we *NOT* allow. And we had a lot of debate and discussion about that. NCUC spearheaded the initial "Keep the Core Neutral Campaign" to encourage ICANN to stay away from over-regulation and prohibiting lawful speech in domain names. </div><div><br></div><div>So in those gtld policy formulation debates someone would propose "no 2-letter gtlds, cause those should go to ccTLDs". And someone else would propose "no gtlds that can't meet adequate security standards." And someone else would propose "no gtlds that violate a trademark." And someone else would propose "no gtlds that wouldn't be considered 'polite dinner conversation." And so on. We were coming up with lassez-faire recommendations to allow all that is legal, except for all these various little carve-outs that we fought over night and day for more than half a decade. (And there were far too many of them for NCUC's liking!)</div><div><br></div><div>And in all those discussions, I don't remember anyone ever saying "no gtlds that could be considered a generic word may be registered for private purposes". No one ever brought up the concept of "closed generics" or raised it as something we should prohibit or be concerned about. So irrespective of the underlying merits of the pro/con of private label tlds, why wasn't it raised at the time we were debating what should NOT be allowed in the name space? And if one can't find discussion of "closed generics" in the hallowed records, it is because we discussed what we should NOT allow, and permitted all else that is lawful.</div><div><br></div><div>I confess I'm not passionate about this particular issue. Just puzzled.</div><div><br></div><div>Robin</div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On Mar 8, 2013, at 9:17 AM, David Cake wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On 09/03/2013, at 12:19 AM, Avri Doria <<a href="mailto:avri@ACM.ORG">avri@ACM.ORG</a>> wrote:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">( i really wish the NCSG list would accept my email the first time I send it)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Hi,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I beleive the ROOC is only a concern if they are unwilling to use Registrars.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>If they are willing to become, or set up, a RAA registrar and offer the same deal they offer themselves to all Registrars, I do not beleive they need any exception.</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>My reading of the ROCC was that you can't remain closed (or at least, closed and with a usefully large number of registered domains) while using Registrars. I guess it is theoretically possible to use the registrar model, yet set the restrictions on registration so tightly that no one but the registry can meet them. It would seem that such a model would be designed for no purpose other than to circumvent any restrictions on closed registries though, and I suspect ICANN might similarly see look on such an arrangement with a suspicious eye. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">As for the issue of not being permitted without being in the Public Interest why should they be subject to a consideration that others are not subject to?</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>In this message I wasn't attempting to argue whether the policy is the best one - only establish what the policy is. And hopefully put to rest the argument that everyone considered this resolved in 2008 or whatever.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>I think the issue is that someone would have to Object to each on a Limited Public Interest basis.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>If they can argue that that particular TLD is detrimental to the public Interest it can be disallowed.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>I do not beleive that they can be condemned as a class.</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>No, I don't think that is the issue at all. ICANN could probably decide to interpret it that way if they really wished, but the policy as written clearly has the onus on the registry to demonstrate that there is not a public interest problem, rather than the onus on objectors to claim that there is.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>I read it as, if you want to apply and you want to run it in a closed (registrar-less) way, you need to satisfy the three requirements in the exemption clause in your application. It isn't condemning them as a class any more than open registries are condemned by having to agree to abide by the rest of the ROCC.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I think that if ICANN decides it wants closed generics, then it could set the bar very low in order to do that (and equally, if it decides it doesn't, it can set the bar high), but waiting for an external objection would not meet the policy as written.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The notion that there was a case against these as a category of gTLD is impossible as there were no categories.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Yes, Bertrand wanted them.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>He wanted them real bad.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>But he did not get them.</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I followed that discussion too. I am not claiming anything came out of it. I was just using it as an example of a discussion in which, if there was consensus about closed generics, it would have been mentioned, and it was not.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I am also not claiming that the policy, as written, specifically creates a category of closed generic, or anything like that. Rather, the existing policy defines conditions for running a closed registry, that include the maddeningly vague public interest test, and doesn't distinguish between branded and generic closed registries as such (and I guess the core of the substantial, rather than this historical sideline, argument is whether there is a public interest difference between a closed .brand and a closed generic).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The only category* other than Standard was Community.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>And yes, categories have emerged since the new gTLD applications, but that was the point: until they emerged with the actual application we did not know they existed.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">So, as just another way one might use a generic TLD, private (or so called closed) were envisioned as just another gTLD that someone could apply for subject to the same rules as any other gTLD.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>No exceptions were made to the nature or use of a generic TLD other than those imposed by law or community.</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I think position is only consistent with the existing policy if you think the exemption clause, and particularly the public interest clause, in the ROCC is literally meaningless. Because otherwise, clearly there is a restriction on operating a closed, registrar-less, registry for the registry operators own use - three restrictions, in fact, one of which sets an addition public interest requirement.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Regards</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>David</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">avri</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">*<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and that established by ICANN Staff not the policy process - though we did differentiate treatment for community applications</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On 8 Mar 2013, at 02:45, David Cake wrote:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The really baffling part of this discussion to me is the way in which both sides are completely convinced that the issue was considered, and resolved, years ago, while disagreeing directly on what the outcome of that decision was.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>It is, clearly, impossible that both sides are right.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>So, I've done some digging.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; min-height: 14.0px"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I looked at, for example, the Categories informal group that Bertrand put together in Nairobi in 2010 and tje subsequent discussion, because surely that would have made clear some consensus. It did not. In that discussion, the idea of single registrant generic terms was mentioned, but objected to quite strongly by some, while some spoke loudly in their defence (including Evan Leibovitch, at the time). It was made clear that single registrant gTLDs were possible, but if there was any discussion of closed generics it was only to flag that some people felt it was an issue. So I'm inclined to believe that this issue was not settled in 2010 or earlier.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The only point at which the issue seemed to be directly addressed within ICANN policy since then seems to be the VI WG. The VI WG resulted in the Registry Operator Code of Conduct (henceforth ROCC) that was incorporated into the Applicant Guidebook. The ROCC<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The relevant portion would appear to be:</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>• Registry Operator may request an exemption to this Code of Conduct, and such exemption may be granted by ICANN in ICANN’s reasonable discretion, if Registry Operator demonstrates to ICANN’s reasonable satisfaction that (i) all domain name registrations in the TLD are registered to, and maintained by, Registry Operator for its own exclusive use, (ii) Registry Operator does not sell, distribute or transfer control or use of any registrations in the TLD to any third party that is not an Affiliate of Registry Operator, and (iii) application of this Code of Conduct to the TLD is not necessary to protect the public interest.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>So, it seems pretty clear that:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">- ICANN has considered the issue of closed TLDs.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">- ICANN has NOT specifically considered the issue of closed generics, except as a particular case of closed TLDs. Closed TLDs are explicitly permitted, but are conditional.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">- by current ICANN policy, a closed generic then is explicitly permitted, IF and only if it can demonstrate that application of this Code of Conduct is not necessary to protect the public interest.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Note that Registry operators registering names without going via an accredited registrar (except a very small set) is not permitted via the ROCC. If they want to actually a top level domain as a closed domain (generic or not), the current ICANN policy is that they should have to ask ICANN for an exemption on the grounds that the ROCC is not necessary to protect the public interest.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><p style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; min-height: 14.0px"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>As far as I can tell, that is the current policy - that closed generics are possible, but are not, by default, permitted. So, it appears that neither side is 100% right, and neither 100% wrong. ICANN still has the right to disallow any closed generic on public interest grounds as per the Applicant Guidebook.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>So, as far as I can tell, the actual current ICANN policy is that closed generics are possible, but ICANN can choose to allow them only if they are convinced there is a public interest reason to do so.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Milton is, of course, correct that the 'public interest' is a problematic term. If you are to go on current policy, then the question of closed generics depends mostly on how 'protect the public interest' is defined, and of course both sides of debate could probably find a way to define it to suit their argument.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>But I think it is time to stop saying that 'closed generics were decided on in 2008' or whatever. Current ICANN policy actually seems far from clear, and there does not ever appear to have been community consensus on the issue.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Thoughts? Responses?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Cheers</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>David</div> </blockquote></blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> </blockquote></div><br><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div>IP JUSTICE</div><div>Robin Gross, Executive Director</div><div>1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA</div><div>p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451</div><div>w: <a href="http://www.ipjustice.org">http://www.ipjustice.org</a> e: <a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br></body></html>