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Thx Alain for your kind comments,<br>
<br>
The points were meant to convince, but maybe not so harshly as they
turned out to sound. I was hoping that jest and good humor would
outlast hard feelings. And I'm glad you forced yourself to see past
the (french-canadian) passion we both sometimes display, and came
back with a courteous yet thoughtful rejoinder.<br>
<br>
Cheers!<br>
<br>
Nicolas<br>
<br>
On 12/12/2011 2:59 PM, Alain Berranger wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CANgs+Svt+=AdZt-g09egR1vkoL1xz8mLZsipLDFA6ogaBgvxkA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Nicolas,
<div><br>
</div>
<div><i>"After all, since IP interests have begun colonizing NCSG
in the guise of non-profit 'operational' concerns (please,
Alain, don't tell me you can't see that)"</i><br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you for your excellent point by point analysis.
Obviously, you now know I read everything you post since you
slipped my first name in one of your numerous points (quoted
above).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes, Nicolas, I understand NPOC's genesis, membership and
current state of development quite well. I see that NPOC is
already a diverse group of NFPs - from the very large
OECD-based global brand name NFP to the obscure and tiny NGO
in a developing country. These are two worlds far apart and
the world will be a better place when all have a chance to
experience the two - not many of us have had that chance! be
patient!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think in the end that that size diversity - and all the
other diversities it implies - will be an asset for NPOC, NCSG
and ICANN. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would like to see a NFP world where the large and rich
NGOs will work hand in hand with the tiny and poor NGOs - as
some do already by the way. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Meanwhile, I cannot stop nor wish to stop any member to
speak of their fears or hopes, to devise their communications
strategy accordingly and whatever else they wish - in the
process "le droit à l'erreur et à l'apprentissage appartient à
tout le monde!" - "the right to make mistakes and to learn
from them belongs to all!"</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But I can also attempt to share my views that NPOC, when it
speaks for NPOC members, speak for all members. I'm sure you
can tell when that happens.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We, NPOC, are a new group, we are learning how best to work
together, outside and inside ICANN, and we are talking to and
learning from each other. We also benefit for being slapped in
the face from time to time and our team spirit is growing.
That will build cultural and socio-economic bridges between
our members in-between and at both ends of the NGO/NFP
spectrum. Never has the "esprit de corps" been so high at
NPOC... growing pains notwithstanding you understand!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We also learn from the constructive criticism from our more
experienced NCSG and ICANN colleagues such as you, so keep it
coming, humor (preferred) or not, it is useful and productive.
<br>
<br>
Salutations amicales, Alain<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:47 PM,
Nicolas Adam <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nickolas.adam@gmail.com">nickolas.adam@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> There is lots of
problems with this testimony and I wonder how informed
NCSG members could have lent their support to this
terrified plea. It's ok to be affraid, it just sucks
when the people that are unreasonably terrified lobby to
impose their fears on other.<br>
<br>
I assume that the 3 days notice is responsible for the
fact that no NPOC members dissociated themselves from
this testimony "on behalf of the <span lang="EN-US">Not-for-Profit
Operational Concerns Constituency known as NPOC". </span>
<br>
<br>
For starters, the assertion that the " <span
lang="EN-US">collective missions [of NPOC members]
will be compromised due to the enormous cost and
financial burdens [sic] of the new Generic Top-Level
Domain Name Program (gTLD) </span> [??]" has nothing
going for it, save perhaps its rhetorical qualities.
Such gross exaggerations will get you your project loan
rejected, where I come from. <br>
<br>
The conflation of the "gTLD program" with the lack of
appropriate preemptive registration rights *built in*
the new gTLD program is a conflation only matched in its
self-servingness by the refusal to note that new gTLD
are attributed on the merit, after a thorough business
case is made by the applicant. <br>
<br>
Lets look at this testimony bit by bit.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">The new gTLD program compromises
use of the internet by increasing the risk of
fraud, cybersquatting, and trademark
infringement and by significantly escalating the
cost to protect against such unlawful
activities. The following are areas of
particular concern:</span></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span><span
style="font-family:Symbol" lang="EN-US"><span>·<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span></span></span><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">domain name registration </span></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span><span
style="font-family:Symbol" lang="EN-US"><span>·<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span></span></span><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">the introduction of new top level
and second level domain names into the <span> </span>DNS
(Domain Name System) </span></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span><span
style="font-family:Symbol" lang="EN-US"><span>·<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span></span></span><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">fraud and abuse, and </span></span></p>
<p
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:12.0pt"><span><span
style="font-family:Symbol" lang="EN-US"><span>·<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span></span></span><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">using Internet platform to
distribute and collect mission-related
information for our members and the communities
we serve. </span></span></p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
How? Did anyone at the hearing understand anything you
were trying to say? Where are causes and where are
effects? Those are grand statements that should be
explicated. But we love our talking points, don't we.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:12.0pt"><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">It is the goal of our organizations
to educate all those responsible for
implementation of the new gTLD program about
unintended consequences.<span> </span>There is
no doubt it will have a crippling effect upon my
organization and any nonprofit organization here
and around the globe in its current form.<span>
</span></span></span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"></span></p>
</blockquote>
<br>
Again, please explain.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">I’d like to begin with our budgetary
concerns.</span></p>
<p
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<span><span lang="EN-US">Currently, the ICANN website
quotes costs for one new gTLD to be approximately
$185,000 to file an application, with an annual
cost thereafter of at least $25,000 for a required
ten-year term. This does not include the legal
fees required to prepare the application and
certain amounts required to be in escrow.
Moreover, there are many additional potential
costs. For example, if an application is filed and
then placed into an extended evaluation by ICANN,
the applicant may have to pay an additional
$50,000. An applicant may be required to defend
its application against objections, which range
from $1,000 to $5,000 in filing fees per party per
proceeding, and an additional $3,000 to $20,000 in
costs per proceeding, which must be paid up
front. Accordingly, the ultimate cost in
proceeding through the entire application process
alone could reach several hundred thousands of
dollars.</span></span> </blockquote>
<br>
Wait, are you actually saying that it is hard to apply
for and get a gTLD? Isn't your point that just anybody
can get one that "looks alike" your acronym and run a
fake fundraiser for a few weeks?<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">If the Y or another NPOC member
chooses not to participate in the new gTLD
program, it runs the risk that another entity
will apply for use of its name or one that is
confusingly similar. In the event another entity
applies for a top-level domain that contains the
organization’s name, the costs for filing an
objection are expected to be approximately
$30,000- $50,000. </span></span></p>
</blockquote>
<br>
By "choosing not to particpate in the new gTLD program",
you mean not apply for your own gTLD, right? Indeed,
objecting to a bunch of kids trying to run their .YMKA
could be very costly. If i was on your board, I would
recommend a different course of action.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> <span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">While processes such as these may be
useful in the commercial space, not-for-profits
simply do not have the resources to participate,
and will certainly not be able to be compete,
against for-profit organizations with large
budgets and reserves for intellectual property
protection. </span></span></blockquote>
<br>
In the "commercial space", people don't take advices
from IP lawers with an agenda. Do you mean that under
(any domestic, pick one) current law, it could be
profitable to form large "for-profit organizations with
large budgets and reserves for intellectual property
protection" with the business model of applying for and
getting NPO's look-alike gTLDs acronyms for the purpose
of running fake fundraising? Because me and a few
buddies in NCUC were looking for a new gig since bitcoin
went down.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><span><span lang="EN-US">Non-profit
organizations such as YMCA, Red Cross, Goodwill,
March of Dimes, and countless others around the
world not only prefer to, but must, use our monies
to provide critical services to our communities.
We simply cannot afford thousands of dollars to
become a domain name registry solely to ensure
brand protection.</span></span> </blockquote>
<br>
I just love it when people use the word "monies". In
french its even sexier. But you're right, "nos argents"
are generally better spent elsewhere than following
advices of scared IP lawyers with an agenda. (Just so I
make myself very clear, I have nothing against lawyers,
what with my dad being a Judge and my girlfriend a Crown
prosecutor― one of the best. I also respect people with
different risk profile than mine, its just that in the
present case, no amount of risk-averseness could justify
such unreasonable fears, and so one is left with the
'hostile agenda' option.)<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> <span><span lang="EN-US">ICANN’s
new gTLD program does not allow non-profit
organizations to protect their brands and avoid
the public confusion that results from their
unauthorized use.</span></span> </blockquote>
<br>
Here we are. I know i've made fun of you. In the past,
right now, amongst my friends in private, and in
publicly archived policy-making forum. I'm sorry. I see
now the need for me to tone down and compromise, if you
will compromise with me. I have made no secret that I am
*against* colonizing languages and addressing schemes
with trademark and IP law. But I am ready to give you
this one, for the sake of us reaching a consensus. I
promise to not oppose reserve lists any more if you will
stop trying to expand trademark and IP law in areas in
which they are legitimately un-welcome (criticisms,
dissent, satire, art mash-ups, and a few others). After
all, since IP interests have begun colonizing NCSG in
the guise of non-profit 'operational' concerns (please,
Alain, don't tell me you can't see that), let's just
make the best of it and decide right now that we will
use our opposition to craft the most balanced approach
possible. After all, both sides are ultimately in danger
of winning too decisively, which inevitably precipitate
the return of the pendulum, and creates the most
instability. Since i'm on a roll here though, we can
work out the details later ;)<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> <span><span lang="EN-US">Recently
one of our organizations, a large and historic
organization, became aware that an unauthorized
entity was using its name to fundraise, online and
in the community. This led to confusion by
potential funders about which organization was
seeking donations. This is a common example of how
our organizations are impacted by brand
infringement.</span></span> </blockquote>
<br>
As you make us painfully aware, there is no stopping all
wrongdoing. The analogy is, sadly though, not on point.
It does not take aplying for and passing the vetting
process and investing lots of monies to run a phishing
scam. Or was ICANN's new gTLD program at fault here?<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> <span><span lang="EN-US">Under
the new gTLD program, such instances could
multiply because infringers may be able to
purchase the historic non-profit’s name as a
domain name. If the non-profit does not have the
funds to oppose that action, immense public
confusion and misrepresentation can result. </span></span>
</blockquote>
<br>
Clearly, you haven't read the applicants guidebook.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> <span><span lang="EN-US">YMCA
of the USA currently employs 1.5 full-time
employees at a cost of $225,000 annually, in
addition to external legal expertise at a cost of
over $100,000 this year alone, in an effort to
monitor and protect the use of its brand.<span> </span>Many
other not-for-profits cannot afford this expense
to protect their name and goodwill. The increase
of new gTLDs will further exacerbate this problem.</span></span>
</blockquote>
Have you heard of SEO. It will do wonder for a fraction
of this cost.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> <span><span lang="EN-US">The
primary enforcement mechanism of the new gTLD
Program is the Trademark Clearinghouse, where
trademark owners can list their existing
trademarks to take advantage of sunrise
registration periods and warn potential
registrants of their rights. The gTLD program is
due to be rolled out in less than 40 days. At this
point, the cost of listing marks in the
Clearinghouse has not been set, creating more
uncertainty about the actual costs for
participating in the new gTLD Program.</span></span>
</blockquote>
<br>
I see you've heard of this. There is a (justifiable)
premium to be paid by extremely risk-averse people,
unfortunately. <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:12.0pt"><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">As I have already mentioned,
non-profit organizations are not in a financial
position to register their marks in hundreds of
additional gTLDs, particularly at premium
prices. Trademark owners will not be allowed to
preemptively register marks that are nearly
identical to their marks; such “look-alikes” are
often used by fraudsters and cyber squatters to
deceive and confuse Internet users who are
trying to locate websites of not-for-profit
organizations. </span></span></p>
<span><span lang="EN-US">If not-for-profit
organizations cannot afford to register the domain
names in the first place, they can hardly be
expected to have the funds budgeted and available
to file these complaints. Nor should they, as
these funds are better served fulfilling their
humanitarian missions.</span></span> </blockquote>
<br>
I'd hate to repeat myself, but if there is monies to be
made in this business model, i'd appreciate if you could
PM me.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p><span><b><u><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">Public Confusion and
Cybersquatting Concerns </span></u></b></span><b><u><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"></span></u></b></p>
<span><span lang="EN-US">Not-for profits and NGOs rely
heavily on the internet to provide their
respective missions. The public trusts the
high-quality services they have come to associate
with these organizations in a reliable manner.<span>
</span>Our ability to ensure that the public knows
and trusts the public face of the internet for all
of our organizations is paramount.</span></span> </blockquote>
Next thing you will know on the IP-powered Internet you
are promoting is that the bulk of NPOs will end up on
the wrong end of the IP stick, the highjacking and SLAPP
end of the stick.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> <span><span lang="EN-US">Bad
actors in the domain name space such as
cybersquatters, fraudsters, and others who
register and use domain names in bad faith to
profit off of the goodwill of well-known entities
have existed for many years in the existing domain
name space. </span></span> </blockquote>
Yet "<span><span lang="EN-US">Not-for profits and NGOs
rely heavily on the internet to provide their
respective missions. The public trusts the
high-quality services they have come to associate
with these organizations in a reliable manner.<span>"</span></span></span><br>
<br>
(...)<br>
<br>
This is getting redundant, in a non-technical sense, so
let me just skip 15 or 20 lines.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:12.0pt"><span><b><u><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">Recommendations</span></u></b></span></p>
<p
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:12.0pt"><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> </span></span></p>
<span><span lang="EN-US">Our fears are not alone.<span>
</span>There has been a ground-swell of internet
stakeholders, including the largest for-profit
companies that have repeatedly expressed concerns
about the program beginning in January 2012 when
so many vital issues remain unresolved.</span></span>
</blockquote>
Fears they are indeed. But the rest of the statement
should be puzzling to smaller NPOC members or smaller
prospective NPOC members. <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p style="text-align:justify"><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">Therefore, we join this
ground-swell in our concerns about the new gTLD
program. We ask that there continue to be input
from stakeholders, and careful consideration of
the impact of this program on the internet, and
particularly on not-for-profits. Among the
numerous requests the NPOC has made to ICANN, we
bring the following to your attention:</span></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span><span
style="font-family:Symbol" lang="EN-US"><span>·<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span></span></span><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">That verified not-for-profit
organizations be permitted to exempt their
trademarks from any other applicant in the new <span> </span>gTLD
program at no cost, or if that is not possible,
then at a drastically reduced fee </span></span></p>
</blockquote>
As i've said, since we are adversaries in principles
(and I hope to be less time-strap soon so I can
contribute to our discussion on fundamental principles),
we should work together to create the only legitimate,
balanced, framework for moving forward.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span><span
style="font-family:Symbol" lang="EN-US"><span>·<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span></span></span><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">That the mechanisms for trademark
protection be significantly strengthened, with
the ability to proactively protect trademark
owners before any application is accepted</span></span></p>
</blockquote>
<br>
Let's discuss details. I will change my tone.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span><span
style="font-family:Symbol" lang="EN-US"><span>·<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span></span></span><span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">That the costs to participate in
the new gTLD program for verified not-for-profit
organizations be eliminated </span></span></p>
</blockquote>
I don't understand what you mean by 'participate in the
new gTLD program'. But in any case, free is never really
free, right? Time, yours and mine, is valuable. I'm
doing this pro-bono. I hope you won't take offense if I
ask if you are too?<br>
<br>
Nicolas<br>
<br>
On 12/8/2011 3:12 AM, Joy Liddicoat wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p>Hi all - as you know the next GNSO Council
meeting will be next week. The Chair has asked for
an update on the Senate hearings on gTLDs that are
currently taking place <link?> I've just
noticed that some NCSG members were invited by the
Committee to make submissions <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://forum.icann.org/lists/npoc-voice/msg00064.html"
target="_blank">http://forum.icann.org/lists/npoc-voice/msg00064.html</a>
and will do so tomorrow: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://news.dot-nxt.com/2011/12/06/ymca-testimony-senate-hearing"
target="_blank">http://news.dot-nxt.com/2011/12/06/ymca-testimony-senate-hearing</a></p>
<p>As GNSO councillors representing this SG, we
would appreciate knowing (before the GNSO meeting)
if any others are also making submissions and, if
so, what those submissions are. If there are any
particular issues you want to be raised or for any
of us Councillors to be aware of, please let us
know.</p>
<p>Kind regards</p>
<p> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Joy Liddicoat</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Project Coordinator</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Internet Rights are Human
Rights</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.apc.org" target="_blank">www.apc.org</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Tel: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B64%2021%20263%202753"
value="+64212632753" target="_blank">+64 21
263 2753</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Skype id: joy.liddicoat</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Yahoo id: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:strategic@xtra.co.nz"
target="_blank">strategic@xtra.co.nz</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
Alain Berranger, B.Eng, MBA
<div>Member, Board of Directors, CECI, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ceci.ca/en/about-ceci/team/board-of-directors/"
target="_blank">http://www.ceci.ca</a><br>
<div>Executive-in-residence, Schulich School of Business, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.schulich.yorku.ca" target="_blank">www.schulich.yorku.ca</a></div>
<div>NA representative, Chasquinet Foundation, <font
color="#0a246a" face="'Times New Roman', Times, serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.chasquinet.org" target="_blank">www.chasquinet.org</a></font><br>
interim Vice Chair, NPOC, NCSG, ICANN, <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://npoc.org/"
target="_blank">http://npoc.org/</a><br>
O:+1 514 484 7824; M:+1 514 704 7824<br>
Skype: alain.berranger<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
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