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    Greetings!<br>
    <br>
    Good. Trust-building it is.<br>
    <br>
    And if hard cases usually make bad law, I would not have anyone
    believe it is always so fated. <br>
    <br>
    Finding an appropriate definition for non-commercial entities is
    going to be very difficult. But Avri is on the right track by doing
    the exercise of dissecting justifications put forth (or logically
    implied) for positions on the discrimination criterion. (Avri's
    message is a little further down this thread, for those who like me
    enjoy thunderbird's threaded sortings of emails). In this case,
    justifications for [policy] positions are intertwined with
    policy(/charter) interpretation, as well as with matters of facts.
    It is agreeing on the status of the facts that is going to be the
    most difficult, so let's right now make way with assertions about
    the detention of any facts or evidences upper-handedness. <br>
    <br>
    I do not see why we couldn't pull it off. <br>
    <br>
    For the sake of discussion, let's work through what we've got. We
    have the beginning of an agreement in the extreme cases that should
    or shouldn't be allowed . Which means we probably have some sort of
    common understanding of the ideas and principles that the charter
    requirements are trying to accomplish.<br>
    <br>
    We can think of some other cases too, real or imagined, that would
    help us narrow down the confines of the grey area between what
    should be considered commercial and non, in the context of gNSO
    policy making.<br>
    <br>
    I think, writing the rules on a blank canvas, one would certainly
    have to try to protect the balance of power and *interests* (these
    are expressed in *perspectives*, but I will come back to this)
    between both Houses. Each SG owes to itself, as well as to the whole
    NSO, and also to the whole of ICANN for that matter, the obligation
    to protect itself from *capture*. Policy capture brings
    dysfunctional legitimacy which threatens the very shaky foundations
    on which ICANN dwells. <br>
    <br>
    I therefore submit that in drafting and interpreting the
    *non-commercial* requirements, in a NSO that has its dividing lines
    along just this distinction, then we should be very aware that orgs
    come and go, that some can be created just to fit the requirements,
    that some may be capturists in disguise, and so on and so forth.<br>
    <br>
    Going back to the points (a little further up the thread) made by
    Evan, the ALAC liaison, on whether or not policy perspective has,
    should have, or could have an appropriate role to play in such a
    discriminating scheme. In principle, most working sets of political
    groupings form around *both* 1) a recognized set of functionally
    equivalent entities AND 2) an admitted *perspective* on (good)
    policy positions in a policy area or set of policy areas. Think
    political parties. So, on the merits, it is in no way objectively
    undemocratic nor otherwise reprehensible to discriminate on the
    basis of some article of political faith of a given grouping. Could
    be basic human rights, could be anything. <br>
    <br>
    Now we may not want to bring policy differences as a discriminating
    factor in the context of already existing ICANN political structure.
    Surely, a time will come when the CSG will face participation from
    (functionally equivalent) commercial entities with different classes
    of interest, possibly colliding. Think last AT&T merger attempt.
    And it would certainly be unfair to deny the waters of the NCSG
    harbor to any trademark-loving academics on the basis that their
    policy positions are aligned with those of the CSG. <br>
    <br>
    But let us not kid ourselves, Evan, and act offended when policy
    perspectives are (most naturally, inaesthetical as you may think
    this be) used in our natural processes of raising the capture flag.
    <br>
    <br>
    In any case and back to our definition/interpretation problem, and
    solely from the perspective of preventing non-commercial capture by
    commercial interest, which should not be the sole axis of framing
    and debate but nevertheless is a major and legitimate one, I would
    say that we would need to, in principle :<br>
    <br>
    A- discriminate against orgs that have commercial membership
    (downstream)<br>
    <br>
    B- discriminate against orgs that are members of commercial orgs
    (upstream)<br>
    <br>
    C- discriminate against orgs that are dependent upon commercial
    benedictions to exist or fulfill their mission/values/roles <br>
    <br>
    [especially so if those benedictions are within the policy areas
    delt with in gNSO and ICANN: e.g. an org has to obtain licensing
    rights from an commercial organisations in order to perform its
    functions ― and licensing rights are a policy area dealt in ICANN ―
    than this org, although non-commercial in itself by all measure,
    should be discriminated against on the basis that it is most likely
    representing the interest of an org that wouldn't otherwise have
    NCSG standing.<br>
    <br>
    D-specify the degree and the side to which NCSG will be prone to err
    on. Should members have a low threshold to meet in order to
    successfully oppose prospective orgs in a context where the EC
    should accept most everyone? that could be one way of working this
    out. Or it could be as it is now, with the possibility for the EC to
    err on the side of fear of caprture, and then let the members duke
    it out. <br>
    <br>
    E- possibly discriminate against orgs that would present a apparent
    conflict of interest with regard the commercial/non-commercial
    divide [consensus on the details would be hard to pull]<br>
    <br>
    ##########<br>
    <br>
    In the mean time:<br>
    <br>
    The "commercial focus" language is an acceptable ersatz in the
    absence of a more thorough definition. It gives leaway to our
    representatives to make decisions and leaves the final appreciation
    to the members, who can file appeals. But I think we could work on
    collecting the different things that we can all agree on that should
    in principle direct our search for a proper "non-commercial"
    definition.<br>
    <br>
    So, although I consider your (Alain) reaction good, that is coming
    up on the list and dissagreeing, let's just take this one a little
    slower (like starting a new thread would be a good idea) and work
    both in the abstract and with this USOC case, if enough people are
    interested, and see if we can come up with something more precise.
    That is, of course, if it is relevant at all in the sense that the
    charter may be amended (the ignorance of which I shamelessly admit
    ... should have thought of that before writing all this).<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Nicolas, off to bed<br>
    <br>
    On 11/15/2011 5:55 PM, Alain Berranger wrote:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CANgs+SueQZSzMyZNnc8VDX9Kw9UQJS=2qgn=cfdjhLTKyj3b0Q@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">Greetings Nicolas,
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>I generally buy the Chambers of Commerce arguments... NPOC is
        not submitting any Chamber of Commerce membership application...
        for the USOC case please refer to the stream of emails and we
        can exchange further, if you wish.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Generally I think Avri's criteria of assessing what are the
        main activities of an organization applying for membership is
        excellent. So in reference to the London games, NPOC would
        support an application by the UK Olympic Committee but not by
        the London olympic games organizing committee (See the
        distinction in Kelly's email response to Avri).</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Best</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Alain<br>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 5:08 PM,
          Nicolas Adam <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:nickolas.adam@gmail.com">nickolas.adam@gmail.com</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> catching up on a lot
              of discussion folks. This debate may be more advance now
              than I am aware of.<br>
              <br>
              Alain,<br>
              <br>
              Don't make this about "being" or "not being" a
              *non-profit*. It is about being or not being
              *non-commercial*.  Non-profit and non-commercial are
              objectivaly distinctive. one of the distinction we chose
              to make was about the commercial status of the org members
              themselves, which is a very objective way to discriminate.
              <br>
              <br>
              Tell me straight please, would you have wanted to draft
              rules that would have enabled Chambers of Commerce to
              apply for and receive NCSG membership? This is a
              trust-building or trust-breaking question as far as i'm
              concern. And a fundamental one at that.<br>
              <br>
              Also, why isn't the org in question interested in joining
              the CSG?<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
                  <br>
                  Nicolas</font></span>
              <div>
                <div class="h5"><br>
                  <br>
                  On 14/11/2011 2:27 PM, Alain Berranger wrote:
                  <blockquote type="cite">Thanks Kelly for putting
                    evidence of USOC's not-for-profit status squarely on
                    the table. It is now hoped that the NCSG-Executive
                    Committee opponents to USOC's membership will change
                    their minds and rally to the NPOC-Executive
                    Committee's recommendation. Kudos to Avri for her
                    mature and transparent attitude!
                    <div> <br>
                    </div>
                    <div>I sincerely hope future discussions about
                      pending and new NPOC members will be based solely
                      on evidence, ie. facts verifiable by an
                      independant and uninterested third party. Let it
                      be clear, once again, that the NPOC Constituency
                      will accept only non-commercial members, thus
                      facilitating the work of the NCSG-Executive
                      Committee on admission to the Stakeholders' Group.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Best, Alain</div>
                    <div><br>
                      <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at
                        12:07 PM, Kelly Maser <span dir="ltr"><<a
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:Kelly.Maser@usoc.org"
                            target="_blank">Kelly.Maser@usoc.org</a>></span>
                        wrote:<br>
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
                          0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                          solid;padding-left:1ex">
                          <div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Thank
                                  you to Alain for speaking up to
                                  discuss why the U.S. Olympic Committee
                                  is truly a non-profit entity.   The
                                  USOC and its predecessor organizations
                                  have been responsible for overseeing
                                  amateur sports in this country, not
                                  just at the elite level but also
                                  encouraging sports, healthy
                                  lifestyles, competition and fair play
                                  at the grassroots levels as well.  The
                                  USOC has many member organizations,
                                  some of which are community-based
                                  organizations such as the YMCA or
                                   Boys and Girls Clubs of America, the
                                  Girl Scouts, etc.  But the primary
                                  members are the National Governing
                                  Bodies (“NGBs”) for the individual
                                  sports (<i>e.g., </i>USA Track &
                                  Field, USA Swimming, U.S. Ski and
                                  Snowboard Association, U.S. Figure
                                  Skating, U.S. Tennis Association). 
                                  The majority of the USOC’s budget goes
                                  to support athletes, either through
                                  direct grants or through funding the
                                  NGBs.  The USOC also provides support
                                  to the NGBs (and their athletes) in
                                  terms of governance support, coaching
                                  assistance, sports medicine, sports
                                  psychology and the like.  The USOC
                                  also operates three U.S. Olympic
                                  Training Centers where thousands of
                                  athletes train each year.  Here are a
                                  few statistics for you:  </span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
                              <p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                  style="font-size:11.0pt">For <span
                                    style="color:black">example, from
                                    2002-2010, these fees were used to
                                    assist the USOC
                                    in:                          </span></span></p>
                              <p
                                style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
                                <span
                                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">(a)         

                                  annually hosting approximately 25,000
                                  athletes, coaches, officials and
                                  program staff for the National
                                  Governing Bodies (“NGBs”) for the
                                  individual Olympic sports at its three
                                  Olympic training centers (located in
                                  Chula Vista, California, Colorado
                                  Springs, Colorado and Lake Placid, New
                                  York) and at its U.S. Olympic
                                  Education Center in Marquette,
                                  Michigan, at a cost of  $360 million
                                  over that
                                  period;                               
                                </span></p>
                              <p
                                style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
                                <span
                                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">(b)         

                                  providing support to and sending elite
                                  U.S. athletes and teams to national
                                  and international competitions, most
                                  notably the Olympic Games, at a cost
                                  of $80 million;</span><span
                                  style="font-size:11.0pt">                            

                                </span></p>
                              <p
                                style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
                                <span style="font-size:11.0pt">(c)
                                            <span style="color:black">
                                    working with local communities and
                                    19 different NGBs on behalf of the
                                    Community Olympic Development
                                    Programs in Atlanta, Georgia;
                                    Chicago, Illinois; Springfield,
                                    Missouri; Moorestown, New Jersey;
                                    San Antonio, Texas; Verona,
                                    Wisconsin; and Park City and Kearns,
                                    Utah;</span>                                       

                                </span></p>
                              <p
                                style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
                                <span style="font-size:11.0pt">(<span
                                    style="color:black">d)            
                                    directing over $160 million in
                                    grants and services to athletes,
                                    including monetary stipends, health
                                    services and benefits, educational
                                    grants, and more;</span></span></p>
                              <p
                                style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
                                <span
                                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">(e)             

                                  providing additional support to 47
                                  different National Governing Bodies in
                                  the form of NGB Programs and Services
                                  including sport performance, coaching
                                  assistance, sports medicine, sports
                                  science and organizational support, at
                                  a cost of $235 million; and</span></p>
                              <p
                                style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
                                <span
                                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">(f)             

                                  funding the USOC’s many other
                                  statutory functions.</span><span
                                  style="font-size:11.0pt"></span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Please
                                  let me know if there are other
                                  questions that I could help answer.</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Sincerely,</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Kelly</span><b><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#425DA1"></span></b></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                                    style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#425DA1"> </span></b></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                                    style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#425DA1">Kelly
                                    Maser </span></b><b><span
                                    style="font-size:7.5pt;color:gray">| Associate

                                    General Counsel|</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></b><b><span
                                    style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#425DA1">United

                                    States Olympic Committee</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></b><b><span
                                    style="font-size:7.5pt;color:gray">|</span></b><b><span
                                    style="font-size:7.5pt;color:gray"> </span></b><b><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#425DA1">Office</span></b><b><span
                                    style="font-size:7.5pt;color:gray">:
                                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="tel:719.866.4115"
                                      value="+17198664115"
                                      target="_blank">719.866.4115</a> 
                                    |</span></b><b><span
                                    style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">
                                  </span></b><b><span
                                    style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#425DA1">Cell</span></b><b><span
                                    style="font-size:7.5pt;color:gray">:
                                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="tel:719.330.0266"
                                      value="+17193300266"
                                      target="_blank">719.330.0266</a> |</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></b><b><span
                                    style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#425DA1">Fax</span></b><b><span
                                    style="font-size:7.5pt;color:gray">:
                                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="tel:719.866.4839"
                                      value="+17198664839"
                                      target="_blank">719.866.4839</a> |
                                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="mailto:kelly.maser@usoc.org"
                                      target="_blank">kelly.maser@usoc.org</a></span></b><b><span
                                    style="font-size:7.5pt;color:gray"> |</span></b><b><span
                                    style="font-size:7.5pt;color:gray"> </span></b><b><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#425DA1"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="http://www.teamusa.org"
                                      target="_blank">www.teamusa.org</a></span></b><span
                                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"></span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                                    style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:owner-npoc-voice@icann.org"
                                    target="_blank">owner-npoc-voice@icann.org</a>
                                  [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:owner-npoc-voice@icann.org"
                                    target="_blank">owner-npoc-voice@icann.org</a>]
                                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>Alain Berranger<br>
                                  <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 12,
                                  2011 3:09 PM<br>
                                  <b>To:</b> Avri Doria<br>
                                  <b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@listserv.syr.edu" target="_blank">NCSG-DISCUSS@listserv.syr.edu</a>;
                                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:npoc-voice@icann.org"
                                    target="_blank">npoc-voice@icann.org</a><br>
                                  <b>Subject:</b> [npoc-voice] Re:
                                  [NCSG-Discuss] Notes from NCSG-EC
                                  Teleconference on 8 November 2011</span></p>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">Thks Avri,</p>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">I have no
                                      appetite for minority appeal that
                                      I cannot hope to win under current
                                      membership mindset, sense of
                                      entitlement, grand-fathering,
                                      numbers and distribution... but
                                      NPOC colleagues may decide
                                      differently.</p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">I think we need
                                      in general to follow
                                      evidence-based membership criteria
                                      and follow the same criteria for
                                      all. So my 4 arguments remain as
                                      far as I am concerned and can be
                                      verified by evidence (facts) not
                                      opinion, hearsay, bias, etc...</p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">Different
                                      strokes for different folks? For
                                      instance, how can we have
                                      NCUC/NCSG individual members
                                      working for a law firm or a
                                      telecom company? but we do. The
                                      NPOC membership is clear: all are
                                      not-for-profit and only play one
                                      side of the street.  </p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">To the risk of
                                      repeating myself, national olympic
                                      committees are not-for-profits
                                      working year in and year out for
                                      athletes and not to be confused
                                      with the games organizing
                                      committees which are for profit
                                      (or at least not for loss) once in
                                      a blue moon when the country is
                                      awarded the games...</p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">For
                                      instance re London 2012: one needs
                                      to distingush between the games
                                      organizers -  <a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="http://www.london2012.com/"
                                        target="_blank">http://www.london2012.<b>com</b>/</a> which

                                      is for profit and get sponsors to
                                      support the 2012 games and the UK
                                      Olympic committee which every year
                                      supports UK athletes and get
                                      sponsors to support athletes- <a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="http://www.olympics.org.uk/"
                                        target="_blank">http://www.olympics.<b>org</b>.uk/</a><br>
                                      <br>
                                      Alain</p>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Nov
                                        12, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Avri Doria
                                        <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          href="mailto:avri@acm.org"
                                          target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>>

                                        wrote:</p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<br>
                                        <br>
                                        Assuming there are 14 members
                                        who agree with your position,
                                        the charter has provision for an
                                        appeal process that includes the
                                        possibility of taking it to a
                                        full membership vote if the
                                        difference of opinion cannot be
                                        resolved.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        > 1. Any decision of the
                                        NCSG-EC can be appealed by
                                        requesting a full vote of the
                                        NCSG membership. There are
                                        several ways in which an appeal
                                        can be initiated:<br>
                                        ><br>
                                        > ·      If 15 NCSG members,
                                        consisting of both
                                        organizational and individual
                                        members, request such an appeal
                                        the NCSG Executive Committee
                                        will first take the appeal under
                                        consideration.<br>
                                        ><br>
                                        > ·      If, after
                                        consideration of any
                                        documentation provided by those
                                        making the appeal, the NCSG‑EC
                                        does not reverse its decision,
                                        the NCSG‑EC and those making the
                                        appeal should attempt to
                                        negotiate a mutually agreeable
                                        solution.<br>
                                        ><br>
                                        > ·      If the NCSG‑EC and
                                        those making the appeal cannot
                                        reach a mutually acceptable
                                        agreement on the decision within
                                        30 days, then an NCSG vote will
                                        be scheduled as soon as
                                        practicable.<br>
                                        ><br>
                                        > ·      For this type of
                                        appeal to succeed 60% of all of
                                        the NCSG members must approve of
                                        the appeal in a full membership
                                        vote as defined in section 4.0.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        <br>
                                        Some comments below.</p>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
                                          On 12 Nov 2011, at 15:16,
                                          Alain Berranger wrote:<br>
                                          <br>
                                          > Dear Colleagues,<br>
                                          ><br>
                                          > I want to state I
                                          disagree with the decision to
                                          exclude the USOC. For 4
                                          reasons:<br>
                                          ><br>
                                          > 1) Its vision: to enable
                                          America's athletes to realize
                                          their Olympic and Paralympic
                                          dreams.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">That is its
                                        vision, but it is debatable that
                                        is main purpose is to administer
                                        commercial  licensing agreement.
                                         Or at least this seems to be
                                        the resumption of those who
                                        voted against their membership.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        The charter indicates:<br>
                                        "3. Is engaged in online
                                        activities that are primarily
                                        noncommercial, including, e.g.,
                                        advocacy, educational,
                                        religious, human rights,
                                        charitable, scientific and
                                        artistic, and"<br>
                                        <br>
                                        So the question is, what are its
                                        primary activities, granting
                                        licenses or supporting athletes.
                                         I have certainly heard
                                        arguments on both sides of this
                                        issue, and personally think it
                                        is a toss up.  For example, it
                                        is well known that most
                                        olympians have to find their own
                                        funding in the US.  This varies
                                        by country, but in the US, the
                                        US Olympic Committee does not
                                        support athletes as far as I
                                        have been able to discover.  So
                                        what do they do beyond sanction
                                        events and licensing?</p>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
                                          <br>
                                          > 2) its mission: To
                                          support U.S. Olympic and
                                          Paralympic athletes in
                                          achieving sustained
                                          competitive excellence and
                                          preserve the Olympic ideals,
                                          and thereby inspire all
                                          Americans.<br>
                                          ><br>
                                          > 3) It is a not-for-profit
                                          with IRS exemption under 501 c
                                          3</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">As the
                                        charter indicates, being
                                        not-for-profit is not
                                        sufficient.  For example the
                                        Chamber of Commerce in
                                        not-for-profit and yet obviously
                                        not a non-commercial entity.  
                                        Specifically:<br>
                                        <br>
                                        "4. In the case of a
                                        membership-based organization,
                                        the organization should not only
                                        be noncommercial itself, but
                                        should have a primarily
                                        noncommercial focus, and the
                                        membership should also be
                                        primarily composed of
                                        noncommercial members.  (E.g., a
                                        chamber of commerce, though it
                                        may be a noncommercial
                                        organization itself, and might
                                        even have some noncommercial
                                        members, is primarily composed
                                        of commercial organizations and
                                        has a commercial focus and would
                                        not be eligible for
                                        membership.)"<br>
                                        <br>
                                        So the question becomes, who are
                                        the principles members?  I do
                                        not know the answer to this.<br>
                                        <span style="color:#888888"><br>
                                          <span>avri</span></span></p>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > 4) fundraising is an
                                            activity of all
                                            not-for-profits, including
                                            sponsoring, and thus does
                                            not make a not-for-profit a
                                            commercial organization. I
                                            think you are confusing the
                                            USOC per se with the various
                                            olympic games hosting
                                            organizations set up for
                                            Lake Placid, Los Angeles
                                            games, etc...<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > Alain<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at
                                            6:11 PM, Robin Gross <<a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org"
                                              target="_blank">robin@ipjustice.org</a>>

                                            wrote:<br>
                                            > The new NCSG Executive
                                            Committee held its first
                                            tele-conference on Tuesday
                                            and we made great progress,
                                            particularly with respect to
                                            establishing a process for
                                            handling NCSG membership
                                            applications and dealing
                                            with the NPOC applications
                                            that had come in since the
                                            election.  So below are my
                                            notes from the EC meeting's
                                            discussion.<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > Thanks,<br>
                                            > Robin<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > NCSG-EC Teleconference
                                            - 8 Nov. 2011<br>
                                            > Transcript & mp3
                                            recording:  <a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="https://community.icann.org/display/gnsononcomstake/Meetings"
                                              target="_blank">https://community.icann.org/display/gnsononcomstake/Meetings</a><br>
                                            > Attendance: Michael
                                            Carson, Rafik Dammak, Robin
                                            Gross, Milton Mueller, Klaus
                                            Stoll<br>
                                            > NCSG-EC Mtg Discussion
                                            Agenda:<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > - Review of NCSG
                                            membership application
                                            procedures<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > - Review of pending
                                            NCSG membership applications<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > - Establishment of NCSG
                                            Financial Committee<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            >
                                            --------------------------------------------------<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > MEETING NOTES:<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > These 8 orgs were
                                            approved for NCSG
                                            membership:<br>
                                            > ALSAC / St. Jude<br>
                                            > Australian RedCross
                                            Society<br>
                                            > Church of God in Christ<br>
                                            > Goodwill Industries<br>
                                            > International
                                            Baccalaureate Organization<br>
                                            > The Association of
                                            NGOs, The Gambia (TANGO)<br>
                                            > Water Environment
                                            Research Foundation<br>
                                            > YMCA of The Gambia<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > These 3 orgs were
                                            determined ineligible for
                                            NCSG membership:<br>
                                            >       1.  Kaswesha
                                            Community Resource Center<br>
                                            > Reason provided for
                                            non-approval: Not the
                                            exclusive user of at least
                                            one domain name (a
                                            requirement for eligibility
                                            under NCSG Charter Section
                                            2.2.1).<br>
                                            > They were invited to
                                            re-apply when they have a
                                            noncommercial domain name.<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            >       2.  Civil Society
                                            Movement Against
                                            Tuberculosis in Sierre Leone
                                            (CISMAT-SL)<br>
                                            > Reason provided for
                                            non-approval: Not the
                                            exclusive user of at least
                                            one domain name (a
                                            requirement for eligibility
                                            under NCSG Charter Section
                                            2.2.1).<br>
                                            > They were invited to
                                            re-apply when they have a
                                            noncommercial domain name.<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            >       3.  US Olympic
                                            Committee:<br>
                                            > Reason provided for
                                            non-approval: USOC is
                                            substantially a major sports
                                            licensing business and NCSG
                                            is devoted to the protection
                                            of noncommercial interests.<br>
                                            > They were invited to
                                            join ICANN's Intellectual
                                            Property Constituency as the
                                            more appropriate place to
                                            protect their interests.<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > These 7 orgs are
                                            undergoing further
                                            evaluation:<br>
                                            > Child Protection
                                            Alliance<br>
                                            > Information Technology
                                            Association of the Gambia<br>
                                            > National Coalition for
                                            the Homeless<br>
                                            > National Grange of the
                                            Order of Patrons of
                                            Husbandry<br>
                                            > Pilots N Paws<br>
                                            > Tranquil Space
                                            Foundation<br>
                                            > Young Life<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > ** Attached to this
                                            email is a flow chart to
                                            explain the agreed process
                                            for handling NCSG Membership
                                            Applications going forward.<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > A few notes on the
                                            procedures for handling NCSG
                                            Membership Applications:<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > Completed NCSG
                                            Membership applications
                                            should be submitted by the
                                            Applicant to the email
                                            address <a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="mailto:join-ncsg@ipjustice.org"
                                              target="_blank">join-ncsg@ipjustice.org</a>
                                            for consideration by the
                                            entire NCSG Executive
                                            Committee.<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > NCSG-NCUC Membership
                                            application forms are
                                            available on the NCSG wiki
                                            (for individuals and for
                                            organizations).<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > Members of the NCSG-EC
                                            have 2 weeks to conduct the
                                            required due diligence on
                                            the applications (more
                                            flexible if a holiday).<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > Decisions to approve
                                            membership applications
                                            require the full consensus
                                            of the voting members of the
                                            NCSG Executive Committee
                                            (NCSG Charter 2.4.2).<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > Verification of a named
                                            official representative's
                                            authority to represent an
                                            organizational applicant
                                            should be independently
                                            verified by the EC (NSCG
                                            Charter 2.2.4.1).<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > Aggregate voting /
                                            representation is not
                                            permitted for organizations.
                                             Each organization must be
                                            represented by a different
                                            person.  No single person
                                            (or group of persons, i.e.,
                                            a law firm) can represent
                                            two or more organizations in
                                            NCSG at the same time.  This
                                            policy discourages attempts
                                            to game the system through
                                            aggregating membership
                                            votes.<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > Organizations with a
                                            nonprofit legal structure
                                            are nonetheless ineligible
                                            for membership in NCSG if
                                            they are substantially a
                                            commercial or business
                                            activity and their interests
                                            are more appropriately
                                            represented in one of the
                                            commercial stakeholder
                                            groups (NCSG Charter 2.2.2).<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > An organization's
                                            official representative to
                                            NCSG cannot be a GNSO
                                            Council Representative for
                                            the Intellectual Property
                                            Constituency (or other
                                            officer or member of the IPC
                                            or CSG).  Outside trademark
                                            lawyers are discouraged as
                                            the official representative
                                            for an org to NCSG since
                                            NCSG is devoted to
                                            protecting noncommercial
                                            interests.<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > ON A SEPARATE ISSUE:<br>
                                            > The EC is in the
                                            process of establishing a
                                            NCSG Financial Committee (as
                                            per NCSG Charter 2.1. &
                                            2.6.) and is looking for
                                            volunteers from among the
                                            NCSG membership - people
                                            with fundraising expertise
                                            and time to devote to NCSG
                                            fundraising activities and
                                            ICANN resource allocations.
                                             So please let an EC member
                                            know if you'd like to be
                                            considered for membership on
                                            the NCSG Financial
                                            Committee.  Thank you!<br>
                                            > --------------------<br>
                                            ><br>
                                            ><br>
                                            ><br>
                                            ><br>
                                            ><br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > IP JUSTICE<br>
                                            > Robin Gross, Executive
                                            Director<br>
                                            > 1192 Haight Street, San
                                            Francisco, CA  94117  USA<br>
                                            > p: <a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="tel:%2B1-415-553-6261"
                                              target="_blank">+1-415-553-6261</a>
                                               f: <a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="tel:%2B1-415-462-6451"
                                              target="_blank">
                                              +1-415-462-6451</a><br>
                                            > w: <a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="http://www.ipjustice.org"
                                              target="_blank">http://www.ipjustice.org</a>
                                                e: <a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org"
                                              target="_blank">robin@ipjustice.org</a><br>
                                            ><br>
                                            ><br>
                                            ><br>
                                            ><br>
                                            ><br>
                                            ><br>
                                            ><br>
                                            > --<br>
                                            > Alain Berranger, B.Eng,
                                            MBA<br>
                                            > Member, Board of
                                            Directors, CECI, <a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="http://www.ceci.ca"
                                              target="_blank">
                                              http://www.ceci.ca</a><br>
                                            > Executive-in-residence,
                                            Schulich School of Business,
                                            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="http://www.schulich.yorku.ca"
                                              target="_blank">
                                              www.schulich.yorku.ca</a><br>
                                            > NA representative,
                                            Chasquinet Foundation, <a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="http://www.chasquinet.org"
                                              target="_blank">
                                              www.chasquinet.org</a><br>
                                            > interim Vice Chair,
                                            NPOC, NCSG, ICANN, <a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="http://npoc.org/"
                                              target="_blank">
                                              http://npoc.org/</a><br>
                                            > O:<a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="tel:%2B1%20514%20484%207824"
                                              target="_blank">+1 514 484
                                              7824</a>; M:<a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="tel:%2B1%20514%20704%207824"
                                              target="_blank">+1 514 704
                                              7824</a><br>
                                            > Skype: alain.berranger<br>
                                            ></p>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                                      <br clear="all">
                                    </p>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    </div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
                                      Alain Berranger, B.Eng, MBA</p>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">Member, Board
                                        of Directors, CECI, <a
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          href="http://www.ceci.ca/en/about-ceci/team/board-of-directors/"
                                          target="_blank">http://www.ceci.ca</a></p>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">Executive-in-residence,

                                          Schulich School of Business, <a
                                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="http://www.schulich.yorku.ca"
                                            target="_blank">
                                            www.schulich.yorku.ca</a></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">NA
                                          representative, Chasquinet
                                          Foundation, <span
                                            style="font-family:"Times","serif";color:#0A246A">
                                            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="http://www.chasquinet.org"
                                              target="_blank">www.chasquinet.org</a></span><br>
                                          interim Vice Chair, NPOC,
                                          NCSG, ICANN, <a
                                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="http://npoc.org/"
                                            target="_blank">http://npoc.org/</a><br>
                                          O:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="tel:%2B1%20514%20484%207824"
                                            value="+15144847824"
                                            target="_blank">+1 514 484
                                            7824</a>; M:<a
                                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="tel:%2B1%20514%20704%207824"
                                            value="+15147047824"
                                            target="_blank">+1 514 704
                                            7824</a><br>
                                          Skype: alain.berranger</p>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                      <br clear="all">
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      -- <br>
                      Alain Berranger, B.Eng, MBA
                      <div>Member, Board of Directors, CECI, <a
                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="http://www.ceci.ca/en/about-ceci/team/board-of-directors/"
                          target="_blank">http://www.ceci.ca</a><br>
                        <div>Executive-in-residence, Schulich School of
                          Business, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="http://www.schulich.yorku.ca"
                            target="_blank">www.schulich.yorku.ca</a></div>
                        <div>NA representative, Chasquinet Foundation, <font
                            color="#0a246a" face="'Times New Roman',
                            Times, serif"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="http://www.chasquinet.org"
                              target="_blank">www.chasquinet.org</a></font><br>
                          interim Vice Chair, NPOC, NCSG, ICANN, <a
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="http://npoc.org/" target="_blank">http://npoc.org/</a><br>
                          O:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="tel:%2B1%20514%20484%207824"
                            value="+15144847824" target="_blank">+1 514
                            484 7824</a>; M:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="tel:%2B1%20514%20704%207824"
                            value="+15147047824" target="_blank">+1 514
                            704 7824</a><br>
                          Skype: alain.berranger<br>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
        <br clear="all">
        <div><br>
        </div>
        -- <br>
        Alain Berranger, B.Eng, MBA
        <div>Member, Board of Directors, CECI, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ceci.ca/en/about-ceci/team/board-of-directors/"
            target="_blank">http://www.ceci.ca</a><br>
          <div>Executive-in-residence, Schulich School of Business, <a
              moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.schulich.yorku.ca"
              target="_blank">www.schulich.yorku.ca</a></div>
          <div>NA representative, Chasquinet Foundation, <font
              color="#0a246a" face="'Times New Roman', Times, serif"><a
                moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.chasquinet.org"
                target="_blank">www.chasquinet.org</a></font><br>
            interim Vice Chair, NPOC, NCSG, ICANN, <a
              moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://npoc.org/"
              target="_blank">http://npoc.org/</a><br>
            O:+1 514 484 7824; M:+1 514 704 7824<br>
            Skype: alain.berranger<br>
          </div>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
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