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<p class="MsoNormal">> I agree that the situation is more complex than I've let<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> it shown. You've convinced me that this may be legitimate <o:p>
</o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> or valuable to look at. And I apologize to all for implying as
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> a matter of fact something that could be contested.<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Nicolas:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I think you were right the first time.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Of course small or time-short organizations don’t have time to follow everything that happens in ICANN. But they can still join if they are interested and have
some idea what is going on. When they do that they have many ways to delegate their time and attention to others. The people we elect to Council, for example, do 10-50 times more work than the normal NCSG member. In effect, they get to vote for all of us –
but they are accountable to us. All you have to do is vote. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">But delegating your ENTIRE membership and giving it and your vote to another organization/person is completely illegitimate. If you don’t care enough or know
enough to apply for membership on your own, and don’t have time to follow anything, then you shouldn’t be involved at all. Aggregating your membership in the hands of another not only creates incentives for manipulation and abuse of our voting process, it
actually reduces overall representation. Instead of multiple organizations getting involved on more or less equal terms, you get one organization that goes out and finds dozens of purported “allies” who make a one-shot deal to give the aggregator all their
rights and influence. At that point, we completely lose track of whether the aggregator actually represents the people or organizations they purport to speak for.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">This sets in motion a most unhealthy form of competition and can only end up with a handful of powerbrokers controlling the whole SG – which is pretty much
what has happened in the commercial SG constituencies. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">For me, the absolute bottom line condition for entry is that the organization itself has to apply, for itself, in its own name and on its own behalf.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
On the merit: <br>
<br>
I'm not sure having representation adds something meaningful that is not immediately counterbalanced by an equal loss. Just raising the issue I juggle with the most for the sake of progressing on the merit:<br>
<br>
It might bring more political participants but it does so at the price, precisely, of their political involvement. That, I think, is problematic.
<br>
<br>
I know that analogies are tricky creatures, so I don't use this next one to close a point; I bring it only for us to use, if it is useful.
<br>
<br>
The analogy is most real-lived political/electoral systems. We don't mandate people to express our political rights in elections. We might do it to lobby our interest. Or to negotiate. We do it to discuss business. We don't do it to express our views on income
taxes. Nor on war. Although we might do it, again, to lobby. We, of course, as a result of elections, use representatives. But it might not be most appropriate to use it beforehand. Although we have parties, they are not representatives...<br>
<br>
Since one of the most important task of NCSG's membership is to express itself in votes, I'm not sure it is great to enable representation
<i>at that level</i>, even if it is true that it helps solve some information and resource asymmetry problems.<br>
<br>
<br>
##############<br>
<br>
In the spirit of thinking this over, here is a list of points-issues, the settling of the details of which could be part of a balance framework for enabling resource pooling with regard representation. This is mostly based on the issues you raise. Addition,
substraction, commentaries and ideas are welcome. Discussion on the merit of this might precede engagement with these points, or it might proceed along with it.
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- The limit to the number of votes one representative could have. <br>
<br>
-- The class of party that could delegate/mandate an external representative<br>
<br>
-- The obligation(s) that such a mandatary (or agent? or representative?) should have towards its mandators (or principal? or represented?).
<br>
<br>
-- The monetary treatment acceptable<br>
<br>
-- Safeguards to insure that the represented has and retains an interest; is and remains eligible<br>
<br>
Nicolas<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/19/2011 5:39 PM, Timothe Litt wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">Let's not be too hasty (or too light-hearted).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">Despite its pseudo-anonymous origin and inappropriate distribution, the letter does raise legitimate concerns that deserve a fair hearing.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">As an individual, I can see the attractiveness of pooling resources for certain kinds of representation. I can't afford (in dollars or time) to go flying all over
the globe to meetings. I expect other individuals and small organizations are similarly situated. Especially ones where the issues are complex and require an appreciation of history and technology that require years of study to command. And while the outcome
may be critical to an organization's ability to fulfill its mission, the cost of direct participation may well be prohibitive. So it certainly seems fair to raise the issue of whether obtaining (and/or paying for) a third-party expert to represent an organization
(or individual, or group of individuals) is reasonable. And if so, what rules apply to such representatives and the organizations that sponsor them.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">For example: Consider an organization that pays, say, 100 unrelated parties with minimal interest in DNS to apply for membership and name the organization's rep
as their own. Although this rep may in fact end up protecting the interests of these parties, it seems clear that the organization is buying additional votes from parties that would not participate of their own accord. This seems bad - and is what Avri reported
in her response as a concern that shared representation could be used to "game" the system.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">Is it in fact bad? I don't like the idea of "bought" votes; it smells of corruption. But suppose there's no payment. Is this then simply recruiting additional
members and providing a mechanism for cost-shared (or free) representation? Don't we want a broad membership? If the selected representative does in fact represent the interests of each party, and in cases of conflict or ambiguity takes direction from those
parties, doesn't everyone benefit?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">If a representative breaches his duty to an organization by acting against its interests, how is that our concern? It clearly is a matter between the representative
and her sponsor - and in the case of an attorney, various ethics laws apply. But do we want to (do we even have the expertise to) police the relationship between a representative and his sponsor/employer? I don't.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">On the other hand, the part of our current membership that participates in discussions (and elections) seems to expect the same level of passion and commitment from
all other members. And, I suspect, would thus expect all representatives to be direct employees (or principals) of the organization that they represent. And fully informed and expert on all the issues. As an individual member, I'm already outvoted by any
medium or large organization that merely by being a member has more votes than I do. I certainly worry about being further marginalized by some evil organization that mobilizes hundreds (or thousands) of zombie votes... But the expectation that all members
bring the same passion, commitment and resources to their participation is unrealistic. And sham/zombie members that are brought in only to multiply the votes of some member would be an unacceptable corruption of the process. One has to have some genuine
interest/stake in the organization to be a member.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">So there's probably some need for guidance about the expectations we have of members' participation; how to distinguish legitimate cooperation and resource pooling
from attempts to gain unfair advantage such as zombie voting. This note is intended to stimulate thought and discussion - it doesn't cover all the subsidiary issues and considerations that I can think of. But a reasonable balance should be possible.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">It seems to me a good thing that NPOC's interaction with the NCSG-EC has identified this issue. I don't know what the "right" answer is. But instead of fighting
over process and raising questions about actors' motivations and character, it would be much more productive to focus on and discuss the issue. If a set of guidelines/rules can be formulated, the EC can put them in place, or call a membership vote.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">While I think that should be done promptly, my position is that the election was conducted properly and that the results should be certified as final. If after
giving them a chance, any part of the membership finds that the current (newly elected) leadership does not act correctly, we have an appeals process for extreme cases - and there will be more elections as the initial terms expire.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">Let's figure out how to solve problems as one non-commercial constituency - not devolve into the ugly, destructive internecine political machinations that many on
this list deplore in others...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">---------------------------------------------------------<br>
This communication may not represent my employer's views,<br>
if any, on the matters discussed.<br>
</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> NCSG-Discuss [<a href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nicolas Adam<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 19, 2011 14:41<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NCSG-Discuss] Provisional election Results</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">And to add to all your concerns (and on a lighter note),<br>
<br>
please note that if "NPOC leadership" is successful in getting the right for the same external (legal) representative to represent many member-orgs in NCSG, the balance of power would fall squarely into *my* hands:<br>
<br>
Debbie's 24 votes + Amber's 44 votes + the 32 already sympathizing, gives ME the balance of power.
<br>
<br>
Food for thought ;)<br>
<br>
"<em>What are we</em><span class="st"><i> going to do tomorrow night? </i></span><i><br>
<span class="st"> The same thing </span><em>we</em><span class="st"> do every night, we
</span><em>try to take over the world</em><span class="st">!</span></i><span class="st">"</span><br>
<br>
<br>
Nicolas, <br>
<br>
PS. I believe I could find many, many persons willing to have me represent them in NCSG. AND they would answer their emails and confirm that I am still their chosen representative at random intervals and at a moment's notice without flinching. You can see that
this is past ridiculous and going nowhere fast. ....<br>
<br>
On 19/10/2011 2:07 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Timothe<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To add to your concerns, if you check what is supposed to be the NPOC mailing list, you find that this letter has not been discussed, or even posted on their membership list. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://forum.icann.org/lists/npoc-voice/">http://forum.icann.org/lists/npoc-voice/</a> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: NCSG-Discuss [<a href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a>] On Behalf<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Of Timothe Litt<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 11:34 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [NCSG-Discuss] Provisional election Results<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Thanks for providing the results, and for all your efforts in organizing the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>election.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>I'm certainly disappointed to see the NPOC appeal - and having reviewed the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>posted material, am particularly disappointed to see it signed only "NPOC<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Leadership". I suppose we can assume that<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:NONPROFITICANN@usa.redcross.org">"NONPROFITICANN@usa.redcross.org"</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>implies one of the organizations... but it seems rather unprofessional that<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>"NPOC leadership" didn't sign their names and organizations, nor provide any<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>data as to how many of the NPOC members (or candidate members) support<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>these<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>objections, nor copy their correspondence to this list. I thought that both<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>transparency and free expression were key values of this group.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>While I certainly expect differences of opinion on some policy matters, the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>entire non-commercial community is a disadvantaged minority in the ICANN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>world with many common issues and concerns that differ from those of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>commercial (and better funded) majorities. Fighting among ourselves and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>asking external parties to intervene on one side or another only makes us<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>appear weaker and less relevant. As Ben Franklin said in 1776, "We must all<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>I hope that NPOC leadership (whoever it is) and our new leadership will be<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>able to establish a relationship of mutual respect and trust that enables<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the community to advance a common agenda where possible, and where it is<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>not, to differ non-destructively.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>With respect to the issues raised in the appeal: since NPOC and the EC are<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>at odds, they should be discussed here (and if necessary in a real-time<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>webmeeting or teleconference). If this does not resolve the issues and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>there is sufficient support, the 'appeal to the membership' provisions of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the charter can be invoked. But I'm naïve enough to believe that reasonable<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>people of good will can sort this out without such a heavyweight process.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Certainly a circular firing squad will only benefit other interests...<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>---------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This communication may not represent my employer's views,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>if any, on the matters discussed.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: NCSG-Discuss [<a href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a>] On Behalf<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Of Avri<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Doria<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 06:43<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: [NCSG-Discuss] Provisional election Results<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>To the membership:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>[...Snip...]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>I must note, that despite having participated in the nomination process,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>having submitted statements of candidacy and been listed on the ballot<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>without prior notice or complaint, the NPOC leadership has filed a complaint<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>with the ICANN Board and requested that the vote be suspended and new<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>elections called.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The letter to the Board by the NPOC leadership can be found at:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://info.n4c.eu/sympa/arc/ncsg-ec/2011-10/msg00048.html"><http://info.n4c.eu/sympa/arc/ncsg-ec/2011-10/msg00048.html></a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>while my response to this complaint can be found at:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://info.n4c.eu/sympa/arc/ncsg-ec/2011-10/msg00049.html"><http://info.n4c.eu/sympa/arc/ncsg-ec/2011-10/msg00049.html></a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>It is my expectation, and hope, that the ICANN Board will choose not to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>interfere in this election.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>A copy of this note is filed at:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://community.icann.org/display/gnsononcomstake/Elections+2011">https://community.icann.org/display/gnsononcomstake/Elections+2011</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Avri Doria<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Interim Chair, NCSG<o:p></o:p></pre>
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