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What is also troubling is that our existing membership already includes many members from these categories. We have at least dozen consumer organizations - many members of the Trans Atlantic Consumer Dialogue and several new African consumer groups, so they are here. Many just don't have the budgets internally to make ICANN a priority - it is expensive to fly around the world every few months and pay for $20 club sandwiches at the Hilton.<div><br></div><div>What ICANN is looking for are "consumer groups" who are in fact funded by business - and not true noncommercial organizations, but this will take away a noncommercial council seat. Another chip away from noncommercial users rights.</div><div><br></div><div>The comment about libraries - we have libraries too. We are proud that Egypt's Library of Alexandria is a new member of NCUC - one of the members that ICANN doesn't think deserves a vote for lack of "representation" and "diversity". The irony of this barely 10-yr old Internet organization telling the ancient Library of Alexandria it doesn't deserve a vote on Internet policy is beyond arrogance. It is dangerous. ICANN staff would drive the Internet into the ground if that is what it took to control it.</div><div><br></div><div>Robin</div><div><br></div><div> <br><div><div>On Aug 6, 2009, at 3:16 AM, Adam Peake wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">At 11:17 AM +0200 8/6/09, William Drake wrote:</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Hi Adam,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I'm fine with restating openness to dialogue etc as you suggest.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Not that we haven't before.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Would like to pick up on one specific bit:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On Aug 6, 2009, at 9:37 AM, Adam Peake wrote:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The NCUC does not have membership (or significant membership) from international consumer organizations (noted in many recent comments from the board and others as a missing constituent in all of ICANN), nor for the largest academic communities, libraries, R&D, etc.</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">This may well be "noted" by the board and others but it is patently untrue <a href="http://ncuc.syr.edu/members.htm">http://ncuc.syr.edu/members.htm</a>. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Just more disinformation. </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">(BTW I also noted some on the transcript of the ALAC call, e.g. Nick saying that the NCUC proposal does not allow board approval of constituencies...facts don't matter if one can't be bothered to learn them).</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Which is not to say that it wouldn't be great to have more groups with "consumer" in their title etc.</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Bill, I know the NCUC membership has been growing, both organizations and individuals.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>But I got the impression ICANN was hoping (expecting) participation from groups representing new non-commercial players, and also larger national and international representative organizations. I think the commercial side of the user house was expecting this too, at least that's how I read some of the emails.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Example in the library space, ALA has been a member for many years, but there are hundreds of similar organizations around the world, and then there's IFLA <<a href="http://www.ifla.org/">http://www.ifla.org/</a>></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">There's been a lot of talk about consumer organizations: most countries have a national consumer organization, or many industry/sector related groups, and there are regional and international bodies (Consumers International, Jeremy Malcolm now works for).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>These organizations are being encouraged to form a constituency in their own right, but that shouldn't stop them transitioning from the NCUC, or NCUC trying to help that constituency to form.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Each year the board selects a member of the NomCom to represent "Academia & Research" (you'd think an NCUC related group).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>They just selected a guy called Jan Gruntorád, CEO of CESNET, the Academic research network for the Czech Republic. Past selections have been people with similar backgrounds, large academic R&D networks (NRENs). Board obviously feels that it's a non-commercial community not represented in the NCUC (except for KAIST.)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Very difficult to sell ICANN to these types of organization, I don't see the board being able to do a good job of this without help, and the NCUC could do well by offering to help.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>It'll take outreach and money.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">About Nick's comment.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Perhaps an example of people forgetting what was actually in the NCUC proposal because we've not been asked to discuss it, just concentrating on the SIC.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Adam</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Perhaps this needs to be a larger, more focused discussion sometime, but while I think of it it's worth mentioning that there is also a claim in said circles that our members are not all sufficiently active and hence our diversity is just on paper, which in turn is supposed to allow for "capture" by a small cabal.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>This of course is held against us as well, and will be relevant in the NCSG.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>As you know, the staff's "Suggested Additional Stakeholder Group Charter Elements to Ensure Transparency, Openness, Fairness and Representativeness Principles" hold, inter alia, that "It is important that the Board and the community have the ability to determine what parties comprise a particular GNSO structure and who participates in an active way....[hence] Each GNSO structure should collect, maintain, and publish active and inactive member names identified by membership category (if applicable)"</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I raised concerns about the reasoning and operational implications of this on the last GNSO call, but they were pretty much brushed aside. </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">So I guess in some unknown manner members will have to show sufficient signs of life on a frequent enough basis for staff to deem them active and consider their views to "count" when constituencies state positions.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Oh, and meeting attendance lists must be published and will be considered too.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>At least, all this undoubtedly will apply to nomcomm constituencies, business ones may get the usual pass from the standards to which we're held.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">And now I have to reply to the council list about this claim in the SOI that we are "not yet sufficiently diverse or robust to select all six"...sigh.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Pushing back on relentless disinfo does get tiring...</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Bill</div> </blockquote></blockquote></div><br><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div>IP JUSTICE</div><div>Robin Gross, Executive Director</div><div>1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA</div><div>p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451</div><div>w: <a href="http://www.ipjustice.org">http://www.ipjustice.org</a> e: <a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br></div></body></html>