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<td class="NormalBody" valign="top"><b>NCUC: Follow-Up Meeting on NCSG Charter-Structure</b></td>
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<td class="NormalBody" valign="top"><b>02/27/2009 04:30 PM EST</b></td>
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<b>02/27/2009 06:30 PM EST</b><br>
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<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Robin Gross <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="">
<div>Great! How about 16:30 (EST) on Friday the 27th for the call? That is 21:30 UTC on Friday the 27th.</div><div><br></div><div>Does that time work for folks who want to join? </div><div><br></div><div>Using Elluminate again would be terrific, thank you.</div>
<div><br></div><div>All best,</div><div>Robin</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On Feb 23, 2009, at 12:13 PM, Brenden Kuerbis wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite">Hi, Robin<br>
<br>I would like to join the call if possible. My preference would be for meeting on Friday, as I'll be traveling to MC on Saturday. But either way I can setup an Elluminate session, so those who can't be there can listen to the recording. <br>
<br><br>Best,<br><br clear="all">Brenden Kuerbis<br>Internet Governance Project<br><a href="http://internetgovernance.org" target="_blank">http://internetgovernance.org</a><br> <br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Robin Gross <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org" target="_blank">robin@ipjustice.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div> <div>Thanks, Milton. This sounds like a good approach and should address some of those concerns from staff.</div>
<div><br></div><div>How about a call on either this Fri., or Sat. to try to hammer this out further?</div> <div><br></div><div>I'm less optimistic that it will pacify those who are fixated on controlling counsel seats, but is an inclusive approach that will empower minority voices within the constituency.</div>
<div><br></div> <div>Thanks,</div><div>Robin</div><div><div></div><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On Feb 23, 2009, at 6:33 AM, Milton L Mueller wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"> <div dir="ltr" align="left">
<span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Robin</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">I will try to have a draft that incorporates the reasonable staff comments and some new ideas (thresholds for working group formation) that came out of our discussions with ALAC/NARALO people by the middle of this week. If we could schedule a call sometime late evening EST this week I could squeeze it into my schedule.</font></span></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div> <div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Let me explain this new idea. Brenden Kuerbis actually came up with it, and it solves many problems related to minority representation under an integrated structure. It should appeal to "dissenters" within NCUC such as Cheryl Preston. </font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">The idea is that when a certain threshold of the membership or the policy committee wants to form a GNSO Working Group on a policy issue dear to them, then ALL NCSG Council representatives must vote to support the formation of that WG. </font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Example: A constituency or faction within the NCUC wants to promote policy X. The first step is to get the GNSO Council to create a WG on X. Once a WG is formed, any supporters of X can join that WG and work on the issue, it doesn't matter whether they have a Council seat or not. So we have a vote in the SG or the Policy Committee on whether to form the WG and if a certain low threshold is met - say, 20% - then ALL of the NCSG Councillors are obliged to vote for the formation of that WG, whether they like the idea or not. </font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div><font face="Arial"><font size="2"><font color="#0000ff"><span>Of course, forming the WG does not mean that the supporters of X will get exactly the policy they want. But NCSG cannot guarantee that in any event -- all the other factions, constituencies and SGs will be involved in any WG. It does, however, guarantee that minorities within the NCSG have a chance to get their ideas past the Council and into the WG phase. </span></font></font></font></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div><span></span><font size="2">Milton Mueller<br>Professor, Syracuse University School of Information Studies<br>XS4All Professor, Delft University of Technology<br>
------------------------------<br>Internet Governance Project:<br><a href="http://internetgovernance.org/" target="_blank">http://internetgovernance.org</a><br></font></div><font size="2"></font> <div> </div><br> <blockquote dir="ltr" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us"> <hr> <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Robin Gross [<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org" target="_blank">mailto:robin@ipjustice.org</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 22, 2009 7:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Milton L Mueller; <a href="mailto:NCUC-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU" target="_blank">NCUC-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NCUC-DISCUSS] FW: Follow-Up to NCSG Charter-Structure Questions<br>
</font><br></div> <div></div>Thanks, Milton. <div><br></div> <div>You are right that we have to continue to remind the ICANN staff and board that the constituency model that the staff is proposing encourages stake-holder groups to be in a perpetual power struggle within themselves (and between constituencies) to hold on to counsel seats. The way staff is trying to organize the GNSO it appears they are trying to disempower the GNSO even further by requiring all energies to be consumed in un-ending administrative tasks and political battles. Too bad. This "GNSO reform" was a real opportunity for ICANN to reform some of its more nasty tendencies (like staff dominating the board, the GNSO, etc.)</div>
<div><br></div> <div>We should revise our draft SG proposal for submission by 1 March (taking into account the feedback we've received so more). </div> <div><br></div> <div>Should we schedule a call this week to discuss the submission further? Any suggestions?</div>
<div><br></div> <div>Thanks,</div> <div>Robin</div> <div><br></div> <div><br></div> <div><br> <div> <div>On Feb 21, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Milton L Mueller wrote:</div><br> <blockquote type="cite"><span style="word-spacing: 0px; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; text-transform: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-indent: 0px; white-space: normal; letter-spacing: normal; border-collapse: separate;"> <div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">Hello, all</span></font></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">You will remember that I sent questions to the staff questioning the practicality of certain aspects of their favored model for a NCSG. The good news is that they have taken the inquiry seriously and responded. The bad news is that, as I feared, the only way to make their favored model work requires enormous amounts of organizational overhead – an additional bureaucratic overlay that creates not only complexity but the possibility of top-down manipulation of constituency election results. Interestingly, the more workable approaches start to look a lot like the integrated election process we already proposed. Read for yourself.</span></font></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;"></span></font></div> <div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; text-align: center;" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></font></div></div> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"><span> </span>Robert Hoggarth<span> </span>[<a href="mailto:robert.hoggarth@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:robert.hoggarth@icann.org</a>]<span> </span><br>
</span></font><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;"><br>Milton:<br></span></font><br><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;">Thank you for your recent email (below) in which you posed a couple of questions for the Staff concerning the new Stakeholder Group model. The questions are challenging and we have done our best to provide what we think are reasonable recommendations as to how they might be addressed.<span> </span><br>
</span></font><br><b><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-family: Garamond;">Q1: How does a constituency-based model produced balanced geographic representation in Council seats?<span> </span><br>
</span></font></b><br><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;">We envision geographic diversity as a representational responsibility of each Stakeholder Group (SG) in fulfilling its role of allocating GNSO Council seats to member Constituencies. We are currently working with the General Counsel to draft Bylaw amendments consistent with that approach.<br>
</span></font><br><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;">Using your example, if the SG has six seats and three Constituencies, it may choose to allocate seats evenly although it would not be required to do so. In the simplest case, if there are two seats assigned to each Constituency, the SG would alert its members that it needs to have all five geographic regions represented with no more than two Councilors coming from the same one. In order to accomplish that goal, the SG might ask certain Constituencies to produce its candidates from a limited set of geographic regions.<span> </span><br>
Another option might be to solicit a larger candidate pool, e.g. three from each Constituency or nine total (voted from within), and choose those six that best satisfy the SG's geographic diversity needs. In a situation where the number of Council seats to be allocated is not evenly divisible, the SG might decide to designate certain seats to specific geographic regions and candidates from various Constituencies could campaign for those available slots.<font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></span></font></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">MM commentary: note the last line: "designating certain seats to specific geographic regions" and allowing "candidates from various Constituencies [to] campaign for those available slots" sounds suspiciously close to an integrated, Stakeholder Group-wide election, which is what we proposed! In other words, Council candidates would have to appeal for votes from across the entire SG, not just inside their constituency</span></font></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"><font face="Garamond" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Garamond;">We believe that the SG, working collaboratively with its member Constituencies, can continue to ensure that its GNSO Councilors reflect a profile consistent with the organization's geographic diversity goals.<span> </span><br>
</span></font><br><b><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-family: Garamond;">Q2: How does a constituency-based model apportion Council seats among Constituencies when they are of different size?<br>
</span></font></b><br><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;">While the decisions may be challenging, we think that one principal role of the SG's leadership team[ 1] <see footnote below> is to establish the very criteria (and methodology) that would allow such apportionment determinations to be made. A SG could utilize factors other than size, for example, geographic diversity and possibly others. To take a concrete example, if there were six seats and four constituencies, the SG could end up with a 2-2-1-1 or 3-1-1-1 configuration utilizing whatever decision-making criteria it adopted (and had approved, via its Charter, by the Board). You raise the possibility of gaming the system and, of course, such behavior is theoretically possible in any proposed model including your own. In that circumstance, the SG leadership should reexamine its methodology and adjust, as necessary, to minimize any undesirable outcomes. Once the seats are allocated, if a new constituency is subsequently admitted to the SG by the Board, we recommend that, at its next annual cycle, the SG reallocate seats taking into consideration five members vs. four. The most likely Council member configuration, given the limited combinations, would be 2-1-1-1. We do make the tacit assumption that any Constituency approved by the Board would have satisfied ICANN's fundamental stakeholder representational requirements and, thus, would be entitled to at least one seat on the Council.<span> </span><br>
</span></font><br><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;">In terms of oversight, we believe that the Board's role will be not only to ensure that each of the SG Charters is structured in a fair, open, and transparent manner; but, it will also likely monitor SG activities, especially in the period immediately after initial implementation.<span> </span><br>
</span></font><br><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;">We would be happy to continue discussing this matter with you and, of course, we would welcome another set of questions if there are still unresolved issues in your mind.<br>
<br>Regards,<br>Denise Michel<br><br>[1] <#_ftnref><span> </span><i><span style="font-style: italic;">We would envision an Execeutive Committee comprised of one delegate from each recognized Constituency.<span> </span><br>
</span></i></span></font><br><font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;">MM comment: This proposal creates a potential nightmare. It requires a group of delegates from each constituency to fight among themselves, with no pre-set criteria, to decide who gets how many Council seats. Unacceptable, and unnecessary. In our proposal, size differences among constituencies are automatically reflected in voting totals for Council seats. There is no need for top-down, negotiated allocations. Those negotiations create all the rigidities that the Board Governance Committee was trying to get rid of, and present all kinds of opportunities for abuse. Even when they are not abused, they will consume enormous amounts of time. It is apparent that ICANN's professional staff – which gets paid to do this work – still does not appreciate the way in which imposing additional layers of bureaucracy and a constant need to contend and negotiation for power inside a SG saps the energy of noncommercial groups and prevents them from doing the real work of policy development. I ask for your support to tell the staff that this is not an acceptable option.<span> </span></span></font><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;"><br>
<br></span></font><b><u><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;"></span></font></u></b></div> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';">
<b><u><font face="Garamond" size="3"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Garamond;">MM's Original Email of 6 February, 2009:<br></span></font></u></b><br><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;">Robert, Denise and Ken<br>
</span></font><br><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;">Thanks a lot for your valuable feedback on our draft Charter (v4.0). It is clear that we are making progress, although there is a long way to go.<span> </span><br>
</span></font><br><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;">In respect to some of your questions or requests for explanation, let me turn the tables on you a bit. The presumption in many of these exchanges is that there's something complicated or "different" about what we are proposing, and that the "constituency-based SG model" is straightforward and poses no problems. In many ways, however, an integrated SG structure is far simpler, and we have no idea how a constituency model would work even if we thought it desirable to implement it.<br>
</span></font><br><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;">Let me give you two examples. I will pose them in the form of questions because it genuinely would like to have answers from you or any other defender of the constituency-based SG model.<br>
</span></font><br><b><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-family: Garamond;">Q1: How does a constituency-based model produced balanced geographic representation in Council seats?<span> </span><br>
</span></font></b><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;"><br>Think about this. Let's say there are 3 independent constituencies in a SG, and each of them elects 2 Council seats without reference to the other. So Constituency A elects (in accord with its own geog. representation rules) a person from North American and a person from Latin America; Constituency B elects a person from North America and a person from Latin America; and Constituency C elects a person from North America and another from<span> </span>Latin America. End result: each constituency has, on its own, produced as much geographic diversity as it possibly could, and yet the end result could be that only two world regions are represented on the Council.<span> </span><br>
</span></font><br><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;">I would be very interested to see how you propose to avoid this problem while staying in the constituency model.<br></span></font><br><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;">An integrated SG model, by contrast, can impose proportions on the six seats as a whole, thereby ensuring that most if not all regions are represented.<span> </span><br>
</span></font><br><b><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-family: Garamond;">Q2: How does a constituency-based model apportion Council seats among Constituencies when they are of different size?<br>
</span></font></b><br><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;">Let's suppose there is an "old constituency" that has 50 members, and a "new" constituency that starts and gets recognized by the Board, and has only 10 initial members (or even less). How many Council seats does each constituency get? Do they inherently get the same number of seats simply by virtue of the fact that they are constituencies? Or does their representation on the Council reflect their relative size? If the latter, who decides what allocation principle is used, when there is no pre-established SG decision-making method? And once Council seats depend on membership size, what is to stop one constituency from extending membership in an overly easy way, regardless of appropriate criteria, to inflate its relative size? Will the Board monitor this?<span> </span><br>
</span></font><br><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;">These questions are not impossible to answer, but they obviously impose a very complex layer of organization, monitoring and procedure that an integrated SG model does not have to worry about.<span> </span><br>
Frankly, Bob and Denise, I could produce about a dozen more questions like this. But let's see how you do with these two first.<span> </span><br></span></font><br><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-family: Garamond;">My point is to put this discussion of SG models on a more solid footing with an equal burden of proof. If you can convince us that a constituency-based model handles such basic and obvious issues as well as an integrated model,we'd be more inclined to change our view.<span> </span><br>
--MM</span></font><font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></div> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"><font face="Garamond" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Garamond;"> <hr align="left" size="1" width="33%">
</span></font></div> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"><font face="Garamond" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Garamond;">[1]</span></font><span> </span><#_ftnref><span> </span><i><font face="Garamond"><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: Garamond;">We would envision an Execeutive Committee comprised of one delegate from each recognized Constituency.</span></font></i></div>
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<br><br></div> <div><br></div> <div>IP JUSTICE</div> <div>Robin Gross, Executive Director</div> <div>1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA</div> <div>p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451</div> <div>
w: <a href="http://www.ipjustice.org" target="_blank">http://www.ipjustice.org</a> e: <a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org" target="_blank">robin@ipjustice.org</a></div> <br></span><br></div><br></div></blockquote></blockquote>
</div><br><div> <span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><div>
<br><br></div><div><br></div><div>IP JUSTICE</div><div>Robin Gross, Executive Director</div><div>1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA</div><div>p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451</div><div>w: <a href="http://www.ipjustice.org" target="_blank">http://www.ipjustice.org</a> e: <a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org" target="_blank">robin@ipjustice.org</a></div>
<br></span><br> </div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></blockquote></div><br><div> <span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><div>
<br><br></div><div><br></div><div>IP JUSTICE</div><div>Robin Gross, Executive Director</div><div>1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA</div><div>p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451</div><div>w: <a href="http://www.ipjustice.org" target="_blank">http://www.ipjustice.org</a> e: <a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org" target="_blank">robin@ipjustice.org</a></div>
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