<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
FYI: See emails from ICANN Board Member Bruce Tonkin below regarding this issue for further clarification and elaboration.<br><div><br><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>From: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">"Bruce Tonkin" <<a href="mailto:Bruce.Tonkin@melbourneit.com.au">Bruce.Tonkin@melbourneit.com.au</a>></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Date: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">January 19, 2009 3:36:31 PM PST</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>To: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">"Robin Gross" <<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a>></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Subject: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><b>RE: [council] commercial and contractual constituencies meddling in structure of noncommercial group is unacceptable</b></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Hello Robin,</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">feel free to pass on.</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">I could also paraphrase a little more broadly to say that as far as I understand the intent is to get the various parties within an interest in being part of the non-commercial Stakeholders group to get together.</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">These parties may come from:</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">- non-commercial constituency</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">- ALAC</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">- At Large</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">- others planning to form new constituencies with a specific interest within the non-commercial Stakeholders group</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">I think it is also important to recognise that while participants in the present ALAC may have an interest in participating in the non-commercial stakeholders group, they may not mean that ALAC as a structure would somehow become part of the non-commercial Stakeholders group.</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Regards,</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Bruce</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="487323023-19012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div><br> <blockquote dir="ltr" style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"> <hr tabindex="-1"> <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Robin Gross [<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">mailto:robin@ipjustice.org</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 20 January 2009 5:05 AM<br><b>To:</b> Bruce Tonkin<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [council] commercial and contractual constituencies meddling in structure of noncommercial group is unacceptable<br></font><br></div> <div></div>Thank you for the clarification, Bruce. <div><br></div> <div>I'd like to forward this response on to the NCUC list because I think it will help in assuaging some concerns by other members of the constituency. Would you mind if I forwarded this response to the list?</div> <div><br></div> <div>Thanks,</div> <div>Robin</div> <div><br></div> <div><br></div> <div><br> <div> <div>On Jan 18, 2009, at 3:45 PM, Bruce Tonkin wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> <blockquote type="cite"> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"><span class="475304223-18012009">Hello Robin,</span></font></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"><span class="475304223-18012009"></span></font> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"><span class="475304223-18012009">I don' think "members of the GNSO community" was intended to be the whole GNSO. If it was intended to be the whole GNSO - it would have just said that the GNSO work with ALAC, or the GNSO Council work with ALAC.</span></font></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"><span class="475304223-18012009"></span></font> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"><span class="475304223-18012009">It would have been more appropriately worded as "members of the GNSO community representing non-commercial stakeholders"</span></font></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"><span class="475304223-18012009"></span></font> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"><span class="475304223-18012009">Regards,</span></font></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"><span class="475304223-18012009">Bruce</span></font></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"><span class="475304223-18012009"></span></font> </div><br> <blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"> <hr tabindex="-1"> <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org">owner-council@gnso.icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org">mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robin Gross<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, 19 January 2009 7:57 AM<br><b>To:</b> Council GNSO; Chuck Gomes<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:NCUC-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">NCUC-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [council] commercial and contractual constituencies meddling in structure of noncommercial group is unacceptable<br></font><br></div> <div></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks, Chuck, for your very reasonable response to our concerns on this matter. </span></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><br></span></font></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><font style="FONT: 13px Arial" face="Arial" size="4"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Your stated position – that Stakeholder Groups themselves should play a leading role in defining their structure – is the same as ours. You ask, “What gives [us] the impression that the NCSG will be defined by commercial users and contracting parties?” The answer, unfortunately, is the <a href="http://www.icann.org/en/minutes/prelim-report-11dec08.htm">Board resolution of Dec. 12</a> (and below) and Avri’s proposed response to it. This calls for the NCSG to be defined by the entire GNSO and ALAC – indeed, it does not even mention existing members of NCUC as participants in the process. </font></font></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><br></span></font></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><font style="FONT: 13px Arial" face="Arial" size="4"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">We are convinced that this is some kind of a mistake by the Board and that it did not really know what it was doing when it passed that resolution. And we have some private communications with Board members that confirm that – it was introduced by staff at the end of a long meeting concerned with gTLDs and was not discussed or debated. However, the resolution is there and concerns us. </font></font></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><br></span></font></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><font style="FONT: 13px Arial" face="Arial" size="4"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">If you can join us in deferring the formation of this group and resdponding to the Board with some questions about the appropriateness of that resolution we would greatly appreciate it.</font></font></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><br></span></font></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Thank you,</span></font></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Robin</span></font></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" color="#0032e6" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><br></span></font></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" color="#0032e6" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><br></span></font></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" color="#0032e6" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><p style="MARGIN: 0px 0px 13px"><font style="FONT: 13px Arial" face="Arial" size="4">8. Role of Individual Users in GNSO – Briefing and Action</font></p><p style="MARGIN: 0px 0px 13px"><font style="FONT: 13px Arial" face="Arial" size="4">Approved Resolution</font></p><p style="MARGIN: 0px 0px 13px"><font style="FONT: 13px Arial" face="Arial" size="4">Whereas, the Board has received varying recommendations on registrant and user involvement in the GNSO, and the issue of how to incorporate the legitimate interests of individual Internet users in constructive yet non-duplicative ways remains an open issue that affects GNSO restructuring.</font></p><p style="MARGIN: 0px 0px 13px"><font style="FONT: 13px Arial" face="Arial" size="4">Resolved, (2008-12-11-02) the Board requests that members of the GNSO community work with members of the ALAC/At-Large community and representatives of potential new "non-commercial" constituencies to jointly develop a recommendation for the composition and organizational structure of a Non-Commercial Stakeholder Group that does not duplicate the ALAC and its supporting structures, yet ensures that the gTLD interests of individual Internet users (along with the broader non-commercial community) are effectively represented within the GNSO. This recommendation should be submitted no later than 24 January 2009 for consideration by the Board.</font></p><p style="MARGIN: 0px 0px 13px"><br></p></span></font></div> <div> <div>On Jan 17, 2009, at 5:34 PM, Gomes, Chuck wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> <blockquote type="cite"> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="017472801-18012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Robin,</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="017472801-18012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="017472801-18012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Please see my responses below.</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="017472801-18012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="017472801-18012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Chuck</font></span></div><br> <blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"> <hr tabindex="-1"> <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org">owner-council@gnso.icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org">mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robin Gross<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 16, 2009 4:58 PM<br><b>To:</b> Council GNSO<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:NCUC-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">NCUC-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [council] commercial and contractual constituencies meddling in structure of noncommercial group is unacceptable<br></font><br></div> <div></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">Don't think I can post to the GNSO Council list, so will an NCUC Councilor please pass along this message. Thank you! Robin</div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><br></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">----</div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><br></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">Dear GNSO Councilors:</div> <div style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><br></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">It is completely unacceptable for the structure of the new NCSG to be defined and shaped by commercial users and contracting parties. Noncommercial stakeholders can and will define their own structure suitable to themselves and not be manipulated by other stakeholder groups who might seek to undermine its effectiveness. It is naïve and disingenuous to pretend that the different SGs don't have competing and often conflicting interests.<br><span class="017472801-18012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">[Gomes, Chuck] What gives you the impression that the NCSG will be defined by commercial users and contracting parties? </font></span></div> <div style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><br></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">We note that no one has invited NCUC or ALAC to participate in defining a new structure for the Commercial SG, or the Registrar and Registry SGs. This kind of discrimination among SGs will discourage additional noncommercial entities from participating in ICANN's GNSO. <br><span class="017472801-18012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">[Gomes, Chuck] What discrimination? </font></span></div> <div style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><br></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">Please note that NCUC has already proposed a structure for the NCSG that has the overwhelming support of the noncommercial stakeholders currently active in ICANN. We have conveyed it to At Large, discussed its principles in public meetings in Cairo, and are in conversations with staff about it now. While we welcome efforts to amend it from new constituency proponents and relevant members of At Large, that proposal will serve as the basis for any NCSG proposals that go to the Board.</div> <div style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><br></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">We have no objection in principle to working with At large members and RALOs in this process, and as noted before we have already tried to include them in our ongoing process. But we also note that individual or organizational At Large members may also be commercial users and thus ineligible to join a future noncommercial SG, and thus have no legitimate role to play in the definition of our structure.</div> <div style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><br></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">The Board Governance Committee has made it clear on numerous occasions that Stakeholder Groups themselves should play a leading role in defining their structure. Explicit statements to that effect have been made by Roberto Gaetano, former Board members and BGC member Susan Crawford, and Harald Alvestrand. This is, quite obviously, the right approach.<br><span class="017472801-18012009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">[Gomes, Chuck] Agreed. I am just not clear on why you think it would be different than this. My understanding is that each Constituency Renewal request and Stakeholder Group Charter will be developed by the applicable constituencies and Stakeholder Group members and submitted to the Board for Board approval, not to the GNSO for GNSO approval. And the Board will judge each renewal request and SG Charter against the recommendations that they approved for GNSO improvement. </font></span></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><br></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">Best,</div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">Robin Gross</div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">Chair of Non-Commercial Users Constituency</div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0"> <div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span> <div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0"> <div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> <div>IP JUSTICE</div> <div>Robin Gross, Executive Director</div> <div>1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA</div> <div>p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451</div> <div>w: <a href="http://www.ipjustice.org">http://www.ipjustice.org</a> e: <a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br></blockquote></blockquote></div><br> <div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0"> <div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> <div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> <div>IP JUSTICE</div> <div>Robin Gross, Executive Director</div> <div>1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA</div> <div>p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451</div> <div>w: <a href="http://www.ipjustice.org">http://www.ipjustice.org</a> e: <a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br></blockquote></blockquote></div><br> <div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0"> <div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> <div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div> <div>IP JUSTICE</div> <div>Robin Gross, Executive Director</div> <div>1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA</div> <div>p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451</div> <div>w: <a href="http://www.ipjustice.org">http://www.ipjustice.org</a> e: <a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br></div></blockquote></blockquote></div><br><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div>IP JUSTICE</div><div>Robin Gross, Executive Director</div><div>1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA</div><div>p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451</div><div>w: <a href="http://www.ipjustice.org">http://www.ipjustice.org</a> e: <a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br></body></html>